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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2002
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    Question Slightly Out There Question For Breeders

    I was thinking today & that is often a very scary thing I have been seeing ads for warmblood youngsters that state "price negotiable to show home" or "terms available to show home". I realize if the youngster goes to a show home, the breeder's name will get recognition.

    What makes you willing to negotiate on the price of a weanling or yearling? Does a guaranteed forever home with excellent vet and trainer references make a difference? Are you more apt to negotiate with an ammy who plans to bring the horse up through the levels and have the horse as a pet rather than a pro who will probably show the horse until he/she gets an offer worth taking?

    I am not judging, just wondering. I can see pros and cons with each scenario. I can also understand why a breeder would maintain a firm price. How do you, as a breeder, decide when and with whom you should negotiate?
    Beth



  2. #2
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Fauquier County, VA
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    Default

    I think responses may vary quite a bit according to a particular breeder's goals. For me, it is important to develop my youngsters to their full potential and get them out there competing. My program is small and each youngster represents a significant investment; if a good one is kept as a pet that is a real lost opportunity in many respects. Ideally I only sell to homes offering as good or better than I can offer myself. And when those come along, I will work with the buyer to make a deal happen.

    I would never sell to any home at any price that is not a kind and knowledgeable home, so that is an absolute minimum and non-negotiable.

    Regarding promises of "forever" homes - I can't put much stock in that because people's circumstances change, and theoretically a trained horse has a greater safety net than a pet. Which is better off, a pet whose owner's circumstances change necessitating a sale, or a well-trained horse with a good show record offered for sale by a trainer seeking to make a profit? So a forever home in and of itself is not something that is a big factor in my decision, generally.

    Also, personal circumstances sometimes motivate sellers to be more flexible, e.g., medical bills, a need to make room, etc.
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net



  3. #3
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    Jul. 27, 2005
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
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    3,250

    Default

    We offer a Hunter Breeding rebate program for buyers that are interested in showing their youngsters on the line. We have been very pleased at the response to this program. Our filly this year is no longer for sale, but is still "advertised " to a serious show home. If the perfect home/buyer came along that could promote her better than we can, it is something we as breeders would have to consider. That said I have already turn down 3 buyers that have made excellent offers on her. It isn't that she wouldn't have had a great home, but it wasn't the perfect situation. We plan on keeping her but am aways open to different options. I would rather sell one of ours for considerably less to someone that is going to show them and promote future full siblings. Hopefully raising the next generations value.
    Worth A Shot Farm
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
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    Default

    We really like to get them into a show home, but the reality of it is that we have to sell horses. We are more "open" to offers if it is a serious show home as that is advertising that money can't buy. We sold an unstarted gelding in June of this year for a pretty reasonable price, because the buyer was going to develop this guy as a Hunter. And she has the talent to do a good job. We just heard that he was Res. Champion at his first show.

    We will not sell into a situation that isn't good for the horse, regardless of the offer.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 19, 2008
    Location
    Maxville, On
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    Default

    Selling to a show home offers no guarantee that your foal will stay in that stable long enough for him to attain his full potential.

    However I am willing to do a better deal to a show home only if the mare of the foal is young enough to take advantage of the plus value that her offspring will give her. I would not do that if the mare was 15 or more unless I have one of her offspring that I want to keep as a broodmare.

    To be fair, my agreement specify that if the foal is sold before a certain age ( 5 years old is old enough to have receive a good start and exposure) then the buyer would have to pay me the difference between the intended full price and the deal.

    So they still can sell it anytime but if they do, at least you are still in your money. And if they don’t, this is great as this was the intention anyway.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse



  6. #6
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    Jun. 9, 2003
    Location
    Alabama
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    Default

    I only will sell to a good "match" and have recently turned down a very interested buyer because she was not. I prefer to sell to someone who will develop and show, of course. I'm not necessarily interested in a "pro" over an ammie. Actually have enjoyed the progress many talented ammies have had with youngsters that they are matched to and have kept forever. I think for a young horse it is imperative that someone be a skilled rider with some experience in working with a youngster. I won't sell a young one to an unskilled or inexperienced person, it would be unfair to the horse and a total waste of the time I spent producing the horse.
    PennyG



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2008
    Location
    Maryland USA
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    1,194

    Default

    You might get me to budge on price if you are a show home, or are capable of breeding properly, and will put stock our there. Most Ammy's that show will have their horses picked up by a pro if the horse is good. So I do not fret if they are only Ammy's. If you are only going to buy the horse as a pet, you WILL pay full price IF I am willing to sell. I will get nothing back from that sale except the money from the initial sale. Black hole concept. Sell a horse to a show home, it gets out there and advertises the breeder. Under those circumstances, a negotiation can occur.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 13, 2005
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    4,001

    Default

    I think it would be rather short-sighted for a breeder to lower the price for a pro, unless they are one of the few with deep pockets & a staff at home & at shows Maybe if its 3 or 4 but don't breeders like to sell them sooner than that? A lot can happen from weaning to the first show (in-hand excluded).

    The best 'bet' is an ammy that shows...if its nice enough (and the owner allows) then it might eventually be shown in the pro/big divisions.

    And with the many issues USEF has with properly & accurately recording things, and the possibility of the dreaded name change, getting recognition as a breeder is an uphill battle.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2002
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    1,312

    Default Thanks for the responses

    I think I should have used a word other than pet. I didn't mean a backyard horse for someone to play weekend warrior with. I meant more along the lines of an ammy who rides with a trainer, does clinics with well known clinicians, shows the horse, and moves up the levels with it. Also, I automatically thought dressage because I'm a dressage rider. So, by moving up the levels, I was thinking showing in hand, Materiale, possibly Suitability classes at the DSHB shows, then onto training level and then beyond. The horse would be a "pet", but would also be earning its keep as a show horse. I completely understand a breeder not wanting to sell his/her horse to a home where it will not move past training level. I am in no way bashing training level, I just see that a breeder would want to see baby grow up and reach higher levels.

    Sorry for forgetting about other disciplines. Must be the DQ in me I can totally understand not wanting to sell a future Reg. Working hunter to someone who does Long Stirrup classes. Definitely not a way to promote your breeding business or your stallion. No offense to Long Stirrup riders. I rarely jump and would probably look foolish going around any hunter course!

    I'm not even horse shopping! I must stay clear of the classified ads
    Last edited by Invite; Dec. 19, 2010 at 11:28 PM. Reason: more babbling
    Beth



  10. #10
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Fauquier County, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bloomingtonfarm View Post

    To be fair, my agreement specify that if the foal is sold before a certain age ( 5 years old is old enough to have receive a good start and exposure) then the buyer would have to pay me the difference between the intended full price and the deal.
    I find it hard to believe anyone would agree to sign that. What if they have to sell because the horse did not work out? Do you really think you should get more money then? Or if their personal circumstances necessitate the sale despite the fact they had good intentions when they bought the horse? Would you really want to punish them for that? Plus, if it turns out they can't or won't show the horse, wouldn't it be better if they did sell it on to a show home, for example? Why would you want to effectively lock them in until 5 years old, in such a case?
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net



  11. #11
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    Jan. 15, 2004
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    Lancaster, PA, USA
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    Default

    at this point...the price is only seriously negotiable to personal friends. Twice in the past I sold horses to BNTs at the discount because their name would get my horses out there and both times it didn't end well. In one case the horse did show well in the A hunters but the horses name was changed, the papers "lost" and I got nada out of that. The only way I know it was my mare is she had *very* unique markings and a friend of mine that lived here and moved to VT/had seen her at my place saw her showing in VT after she moved there and recognized her. The other time the BNT didn't even get the horse home. The horse was immediately resold to a friend of hers and is not showing. She just used her name to get her friend that wanted the filly the horse at a better price. Personal friends and previous clients get good discounts now. That's it. Other than that.....the price is what it is.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
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    Mirabel, QC
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    Default

    I think a breeder would be better off rewarding actual show outings and championships then giving a discount.

    People lie.

    They can tell you anything and turn around and sell the horse for a good profit.
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
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  13. #13
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    Aug. 26, 2003
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    The good 'ole State of denial
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    Default

    I think it's a way for people to try and help see their horse go to a place where it will do something. Most of those ads to me don't read: "BNT only," but rather a show home -in the sense of someone will take out on the line, back, and get out of the front yard and do something with to make a name (even if lower levels).

    I turned down a couple buyers interested in my ISH that were a very bad fit (aka, my 5 year old wants a "pony" to raise, and I heard Irish had such calm demeanors) - and I did end up negotiating price for my trainer and his wife, who show lower levels up to Advanced eventing. I don't expect she will have a forever home (I'd love that...but I've only got one lifer so I don't expect many others to) but I know for a fact she will be started the right way, exposed, and have the best shot at it given the circumstances.

    I have another youngster coming along that I will also be very picky about a home for. But the reality of it is, we try not to breed anything we can't keep longer term and start ourselves, so we don't find ourself in a situation where we are desperate to sell to whatever home comes along.

    And I love nothing more than pictures/updates of the new owners with our past horses doing something with them, enjoying them! It's a great feeling!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 2, 2002
    Posts
    1,312

    Thumbs up

    I appreciate the feedback! After reading some of the responses, I definitely understand "FIRM" prices more than "negotiable to show home" prices. I also commend you all for doing your best to send your youngsters to homes that are a good fit and turning people away if they are the wrong fit. I realize breeding is not the easiest business, so thank you to everyone who does their best to supply us with high quality horses!!!
    Beth



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
    Location
    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    I'm not particularly willing to sell at a discount to a pro after one experience I had. Someone looking for a reasonably BNT (RBNT) for a young horse (I think it was for a 2yo or an unstarted 3yo, don't remember exactly). They saw a video and said they absolutely loved him. The problem was, that after talking to them for a while, I found out that they were looking for about 10 of these and wanted me to basically give my youngster away. The RBNT would bring the 10 along and see which one she really wanted. The other 9 would all be sold as "Trained by RBNT with incredible potential for the top" for BIG money because RBNT's name was attached to them - NOT mine. They actually told me I should sell them my youngstser for $1000 - $2000 as other people were clamoring for them to take their youngsters for that or less. Better them than me!
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  16. #16
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Fauquier County, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    I'm not particularly willing to sell at a discount to a pro after one experience I had. Someone looking for a reasonably BNT (RBNT) for a young horse (I think it was for a 2yo or an unstarted 3yo, don't remember exactly). They saw a video and said they absolutely loved him. The problem was, that after talking to them for a while, I found out that they were looking for about 10 of these and wanted me to basically give my youngster away. The RBNT would bring the 10 along and see which one she really wanted. The other 9 would all be sold as "Trained by RBNT with incredible potential for the top" for BIG money because RBNT's name was attached to them - NOT mine. They actually told me I should sell them my youngstser for $1000 - $2000 as other people were clamoring for them to take their youngsters for that or less. Better them than me!
    Wow. Why do people think you would sell to a stranger at that price rather than to one of your BN friends?
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    Default

    I'm not kidding you. This person said people were basically throwing youngsters at them for the chance to be trained, ridden and shown by "RBNT" and then the 9 - or maybe even all of them if at least one of them wasn't satisfactory - would be sold for BIG bucks later as trained, ridden and shown by "RBNT". I am NOT kidding!! I said, "Not just no, but HE!! no!" I didn't even say, "No thanks".
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Fauquier County, VA
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki View Post
    I'm not kidding you. This person said people were basically throwing youngsters at them for the chance to be trained, ridden and shown by "RBNT" and then the 9 - or maybe even all of them if at least one of them wasn't satisfactory - would be sold for BIG bucks later as trained, ridden and shown by "RBNT". I am NOT kidding!! I said, "Not just no, but HE!! no!" I didn't even say, "No thanks".
    LOL!!
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net



  19. #19
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    Nov. 1, 2005
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    The Prairie
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    Default

    While I understand the motivation to be more negotiable to a "show home", what sort of steps can a breeder take to make sure the horse doesn't undergo a name change, papers "lost" etc?

    I recently got the WEG issue of the Breeder's Digest (CWHBA) publication which featured pictures on the cover of some of the more successful CWHBA horses. I see that a horse called Simply Ahorn, bred by a Canadian breeder, has been sold to Europe to be ridden and shown under the name "Belmont" by Nick Skelton. Such great success for his breeder but only a handful of people will remember his origins.
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep. 19, 2008
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    Maxville, On
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    583

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
    I find it hard to believe anyone would agree to sign that. What if they have to sell because the horse did not work out? Do you really think you should get more money then? Or if their personal circumstances necessitate the sale despite the fact they had good intentions when they bought the horse? Would you really want to punish them for that? Plus, if it turns out they can't or won't show the horse, wouldn't it be better if they did sell it on to a show home, for example? Why would you want to effectively lock them in until 5 years old, in such a case?
    You might find it hard to believe but this is what I did and I would do it again.

    I am not locking anyone… you have to understand that if you accept this deal, it means you would have accepted to pay the full price anyway. I could have sold this foal at full price many times but I wanted him to go to a pro. I really cut my price.

    They had the choice: either pay the full price, don’t buy him or accept this agreement. If they think the full price is right and would have bought him anyway, they really don’t have anything to lose but everything to gain. I for myself would have accepted it for sure. Put the money in the bank if you want and when you want to sell , take it back to me or wait until he is 5 years old and spent it !!

    For that to work it really have to be a cut back on the real value. I don’t believe somebody would refuse such a deal… Just for example, you see a horse that you want to buy and they are asking $100,000. You think it is a fair price and are ready to buy him. Now the seller tells you that you have to keep him for 5 years!!! Hell no, you will certainly not be interested as you never know what could happen and you don’t want to be locked…but then he said, give me 75k but if you do sell him before 5 years, you give me 25K. You keep the 25K if not sold after 5 years…

    I think if you are intelligent you would buy this horse, lock the 25K in the bank for 5 years. But if for any reason you are obliged to sell him, it is only fair that you take this 25K and give it to the seller even if you have to sell the horse with a big lost. If you had bought it for the full price of 100k, you would have lost anyway.

    But in another scenario, you received an offer that you can’t refused, well you have the opportunity to sell but at least the ‘profit’ is shared in a way. I might not have what I wanted for my horse but at least I am not losing the difference in the hand of the professional.


    In my case, after selling the foal they had people interested. I am not saying they would have accepted to sell if there was not this clause but of course it is not as interesting and they know that I really want my foal to be developed by them.

    It is always a gamble, this agreement just postpone the gamble and if they do keep him as I wanted them to , well they won't have to pay me anything, the same if the foal died . But at least I gave my foal a chance to prove his potential in a fair way. They were happy, I was happy.

    If the foal doesn’t prove his potential as I expected he would, we both lose in this agreement since I could have sold him at full price to somebody else. So I am as much interested as they are to see this foal developing into his full potential. It is a win/ win situation and you would be a fool to refuse it.
    Suzanne
    bloomingtonfarm.com
    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse



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