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  1. #1
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    Default sending a horse for training?

    A friend sent a 4 year old to a trainer that came highly recommended. She was green broke.. She was to start her.. She was paying for 2 days a week...She always asked for pics and reports. Never got them. I finally get some pics and it is someone else on the horse! There were always excuses...So after one yaer the thought was to move her so she could learn to jump...Turns out horse didn't know anything! So it appears that no training had ever taken place. Is there any recourse or just let it go and never recommend her to anyone?
    Now, the new trainer has to start from scratch....and the owner is out the training fees....
    She was to have a basic in dressage before going on to learn to jump...
    Last edited by ivy62; Dec. 9, 2010 at 01:48 PM.
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  2. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ivy62 View Post
    A friend sent a 4 year old to a trainer that came highly recommended. She was green broke.. She was to start her.. She was paying for 2 days a week...She always asked for pics and reports. Never got them. I finally get some pics and it is someone else on the horse! There were always excuses...So after one yaer the thought was to move her so she could learn to jump...Turns out horse didn't know anything! So it appears that no training had ever taken place. Is there any recourse or just let it go and never recommend her to anyone?
    Now, the new trainer has to start from scratch....and the owner is out the training fees....
    She was to have a besic in dressage before going on to learn to jump...
    Two days a week?


    Youngsters require more interaction than that.


    Put the horse in a program that will longe/ride/handle it five days a week and expect them to be proficient at youtube if you can't go out and see it regularly.



  3. #3
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    Wow, a whole year! I have a youngster thinking of sending for training and I will be making sure up front I have some updates, via email, video, etc. How far away was trainer? After repeated failure to provide information (after like a few weeks) why didn't they go get horse?

    Had to get that out of the way because I am sure it will come up. I would imagine if there was a contract, hopefully written and not just verbal owner could sue. If particular things were agreed upon.

    Just so I understand the horse was there for a year and it is just now being moved and discovered the horse learned nothing? You say excuses? I have to say if it were my horse a few weeks of excuses would be enough. But at max a few months. Sorry for your friend, they will have to decide if a lawsuit is worth their time and money.


    P.S. I agree two days a week sounds odd



  4. #4
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    My horse was with a cowgirl trainer (great person for breaking young horses) for 60 days and he was W/T/ some C and I had ridden him a few times. Cowgirl then got hurt so my horse went on to another friend and he was solid W/T/C after another 30 days and I was riding 3x a week. Of course both of these folks rode him at least 4x a week while he was in training.

    They got snookered.



  5. #5
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    Default

    Paying for training and getting nothing is oh so common. Sadly it is up to the owner to be the advocate and be in the trainer's face about updates and regularly witnessing training sessions and verifying progress.



  6. #6

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    This happens more often than not.

    in my training agreements, i have that I (the trainer) will be the only one riding the horse. Owners are welcome to visit at any point, and pictures/short youtube clips are posted about every 2-4 weeks. I send weekly emails saying what we are working on and try to include some positives/negatives.

    But i have to agree that two days a week for a youngster is not a lot to get them going.



  7. #7
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    Default

    "Anything" could mean the horse doesn't know how to be ridden, mounted, stand, for saddling, or, doesn't know beyond lateral giving to aids.

    Two times a week is not frequent. 4 times a week would show more progress, in my mind, however, it may not have been appropriate for a 4 yo, and he may only have received the training he could tolerate at his age.

    Its not possible to tell from your post exactly what the owner expected vs. what the horse was trained to do.

    I would ask for a written report from the trainer regarding the progress the horse had - what basics were instilled in his repretoir, what problems the trainer found with the horse, if the horse had difficulties in some manner how that informed his lack of progress, or did the trainer feel the horse learned exactly what a horse should have learned in that year. For example, if the trainer found that the horse's joints were immature, he may not have asked for much collection or something (making this up, who knows) and just worked on asking the horse to move straight and become responsive to the leg, to give to pressure, etc.

    Its a 4 year old, not sure how much a 4 year old should know with 2 days work a week after a year.

    Maybe the trainer spent the majority of the time working the horse in hand and longeing and long lining; maybe the trainer actually agrees that the horse isn't ready for jumping.

    I would expect some training time of a horse sent out to have been with assisstants, in fact would want that, for the horse to have the experience of different people asking for the work he's getting, and would not find that a problem. I would assume that a professional has his assistants follow his orders regarding a horse, as to what work was to be done on the horse that ride. If the trainer isn't trusted at that level, the owner shouldn't have sent the horse there, so clearly the trainer is trusted to be in charge of the horse's schooling, whether a student, assistant trainer, groom, paddock worker is handlikng the horse for some reason.

    If this is a trainer with a good reputation, my first guess would be that a) there is poor communication from the trainer to the owner and that could be for many reasons not all of them the trainer's fault, but possibly his responsibility which he didn't pursue with vigor; and b) the trainer put the work into the horse which the horse was capable of learning at his tender age, and the owner is unfamiliar with what it is the horse learned and had different expectations.

    If the owner expected more to be accomplished than she sees was, it may not be the fault of the trainer. Her ideas of what could be done with the horse may have been inappropriate to the reality of what the horse was ready to learn.

    As young horse, the horse may well be performing admirably - but have no clue what the owner is asking him to do. Put the trainer and his assistants on the horse, and he may perform a training level test beautifully.

    Still boils down to this: The owner apparently doesn't know what the trainer did with the horse and needs a report. If it were me, I would also have a face to face discussion with the trainer and have the trainer give me some lessons on the horse to understand how the horse was traineed and what to continue with.

    IOW, maybe its not the trainer. Maybe its the owner.

    IOW, Whether you and your friend's expectations are reasonable in your minds, doesn't mean that they are what could be reasonably expected from this horse at this time or what he was taught at all. And, just because the horse doesn't respond to your instructions doesn't mean he wasn't trained. He may just have been trained to respond to different direction than you are giving. The fact is, you don't know, as a bystander, and your friend doesn't know, because she hasn't been given the details. She may have to go after them. Some trainers figure if the owners really care, they will make the effort to come and see what the horse is doing and evaluate the progress every 6 weeks or so based on what they see. If she didn't even visit the horse, I don't how interested she was in observing what the horse was larning.
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.



  8. #8
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    First off, the horse is many miles away. The new trainer I believe said that the horse does not accept contact, doesn't know how to stand at the mounting block, walk straight etc. It appeared to be simple stuff...The new trainer said that after 2 rides the horse was better...
    The owner has never had a green horse before and was told that this was okay to start her horse.
    I think the expectations were w-t-c after all the time spent....She kept hearing about shows that never happened stuff like that. Also, the weather was blamed a lot. It rained or the ring was to muddy...or it was too hot
    I do not know all the particulars but that is the jist of it.
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  9. #9
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    I see. Well, if all that stuff happened on the horses one of two days to be ridden, maybe he didn't get much attention after all. Two days still isn't much time to give to a young horse. I guess she didn't get what she expected.
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.



  10. #10
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    I don't mean to put it all on the owner, but had the owner ridden green broke horse prior to sending away? Did they ever go ride it or take a friend who could ride to see how horse was doing in a year's time? Sort of seems like horse got moved and now it's become apparent it knows nothing. A whole year went by before that was noticed? Just seems pretty odd, but then I would not be leaving my horse with anyone for that long w/o frequent contact, just me.



  11. #11
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    Default

    And this is why you don't send your horse to a trainer without being able to frequently visit. I'm sorry if the horse is miles away, but if you can't check up on your horse (did she not go there once in a year? I find that hard to believe) on unannounced and announced visits, you really shouldn't be just sending the horse off unless you have a really good history with the trainer.

    I sent my horse off once (5 hours from me). I visited her three times (two times unannounced) over the course of two months. And I still got had, as in the trainer "bumped" my already bit-phobic horse off the bit.

    I'm tinkering with the idea of letting my instructor/trainer have at her for 30 or 60 days this spring, and I will be at the barn nearly every day to follow up on her work anyway. Plus, I'm riding a 4-year-old she gave 60 days to earlier this year and I like her work. I've seen other horses she has worked with and watched her work and feel comfortable.

    I could probably get more bang for my buck with a really awesome dressage trainer working with my mare, but that's a gamble. I'd rather know what I'm getting.

    Yes, I'm jaded now lol



  12. #12
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    Default

    The horse had been mounted from both sides and ridden in a round pen before she left. I know that. It was blind trust I think.and a newbie to green horses and trainers.
    Now the horse is in a better place and doing well even after a few rides. It is just a shame that the advantage people take.why can't people do the job they were hired for.
    I taught my horse how to lounge, ground drive and even drive over poles only working him 2 or 3 days a week...
    Oh, I forgot to add that the horse didn't even know how to lounge with or without a caveson.
    I guess this was more of an FYI about trainers and just venting a little to some people that might understand.
    Thanks
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  13. #13
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    I never would have left a horse with a trainer who did not provide the requested video and pics. And also, yes, two days a week is really not enough for sending a horse to a trainer. When I am starting my own, I sometimes will just work them two days a week - but that's my own time and it's usually because I feel like that's enough at that point.

    When I do send a horse to a trainer, I get a weekly report and never go more than 2 without an actual visit. And the last horse I sent for training to a very good eventer rider - horse had been backed, was broke to death to bridle/saddle/lunging when I sent him. Within two weeks, trainer was riding horse all over the property, walk/trot/canter.



  14. #14
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    sorry that happened to your friend, yes some horse people can take advantage especially of a newbie. I would say depending on how much the owner feels it was worth to her would be the gauge on whether to pursue any action, but going to be very tough to prove. At least the horse was well cared for and fed I hope?



  15. #15
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    When we train young horses, first we do not do a "number of days" rate. They pay a flat fee which is generally a 5 day work week, sometimes a day off for bad weather etc, but that is the basic time. Two days a week on an unstarted youngster really is going to get you NOWHERE. However, on all of mine I send out pics/videos regularly, as I have had many owners that NEVER visited. I will say that the owners have all been thrilled with the results however. Important to do your homework and to actively make SURE the traienr responds. If they do not and if no results are seen then get the horse out of there, don't wait a year!



  16. #16
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    Yeah, we spoke about it. Every time she approached the trainer about the info she was told a new story or something. Remember she was told that this was an okay way to do it. She trusted the trainer and over the last few months had heard some stuff that was not that good.
    It was a learning experience for all and hopefully, not to be repeated...It just made me mad to know she was taken advantage of.
    Thanks for listening....
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  17. #17
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    I had the same thing happen to me. I sent out a 3 year old for basics. I got him back with no basics and he was very underweight.
    I sold him at a loss because I was in a financial fix.
    I lost money all the way around. Same here, the person was highly recommended. I should have just done it myself.
    I knew how. But wanted him ready to sell.
    A year is too long to wait for a training job.
    This person should have been over there at least once a month and more so if possible.
    It happens all too often. Integrity is a lost word now days.
    Sorry it happened to her.
    regards, sadlmakr



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy62 View Post
    First off, the horse is many miles away. The new trainer I believe said that the horse does not accept contact, doesn't know how to stand at the mounting block, walk straight etc. It appeared to be simple stuff...The new trainer said that after 2 rides the horse was better...
    The owner has never had a green horse before and was told that this was okay to start her horse.
    I think the expectations were w-t-c after all the time spent....She kept hearing about shows that never happened stuff like that. Also, the weather was blamed a lot. It rained or the ring was to muddy...or it was too hot
    I do not know all the particulars but that is the jist of it.
    I just wanted to point out from a trainer's perspective something akin to AR's first response - that all the things you mentioned the horse not knowing may in fact be the result of the trainer asking for things differently. I frequently ask for a horse to accept contact much differently than the next rider (in fact, I have a friend riding one of my OTTB's and initially she said he did not accept contact - because she was asking the way she asks her horses, whereas I ask differently - both are good ways, but that horse goes on the bit for me, easily, and both horse and rider had to adapt to the different way of asking before she could get him on the bit consistently). As far as standing still at the mounting block, maybe the previous trainer did not focus on that specifically or maybe the horse simply had a bad day (after all, the horse DID improve after two rides). Same could follow for walking straight, though that would be more indicative I would think of a horse not being taught much.

    Horses are NOT robots. I offer as part of my training package lessons for the owner irregardless of rider experience (or lack thereof), so that I can teach the rider/owner how I ask for specific things of their horse and so as to demonstrate what the horse is capable of and what I have taught. Do you know how many owners have actually come out for a lesson? Zip. Which is okay - it is your choice - but if you do not come out to take a lesson or to at least observe your horse's progress, then do NOT expect to get the same results as I do with your horse. Horses are a reflection of their rider.
    ETA: owners not coming out to take advantage of lessons has never been a problem though and most have either checked in periodically or I have made sure they observed what their horse was capable of and at what level prior to the horse going home. Just sayin though.

    That said, by the rest of your post it DOES sound like your friend was possibly screwed over but personally I would chalk it up to a life lesson learned. Two days a week over the couse of a year is definitely very likely insufficient for any 4yo horse, she SHOULD have gone to check on the horse and/or had videos or at least photos sent of the horse, and she should have made sure to try the horse out prior to picking it up or at least observe what the horse was capable of. If the trainer took advantage of your friend, it is because your friend (unwittingly) fully enabled it. Too bad, but it happens. Sure the owner could pursue this in court but how do you prove the horse was or was not taught specifics in court? I do not think the case would be all that strong. Talk to the original trainer and see if you can get more details, then walk away and carry on.

    ETA: Teaching a horse ground work versus saddle work over a schedule of 2 days a week is VERY different. Ground work would be fairly progressive however saddle work would be slow.
    As far as the horse not knowing how to longe in a cavesson - was that something the owner specifically asked for? To me, that is great if the trainer does that however they might work a horse on the ground appropriately but in a different manner. Just because a horse does not longe in a cavesson (or does not longe for the new trainer, according to how THEY ask) does not mean the trainer did not do their job.
    As I said, it sounds by other evidence that your friend was likely taken advantage of however be careful with how you judge and what you say.
    Last edited by naturalequus; Dec. 10, 2010 at 01:42 AM.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  19. #19
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    We have talked about her just putting it behind her and moving on. As for asking the same way, the trainer that has her now is trained by the first trainer so I think there should be some continuity there.
    It was just a bad experience and that is that. She has learned the hard way not to trust people and that is a hard lesson learned. fortunately, it doesn't look like any harm was done but the money and time spent is the only thing lost. Thank god...She is a nice horse and smart so she should pick up on things quickly...I hope it works out for her...
    As I said why can't people do what they say. How many days a week well that was suggested by the trainer to keep costs down and she thought that was okay.. Inexperience that's all....
    Thanks
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  20. #20
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    There is definitaly a lack of professionalism and a lot of difference in between trainers.

    Some trainers would gain a lot by having them teach a couple of things like client's service, honesty and so on.
    This is unfair to take advantage of people and horse too !

    Choosing a trainer is a very tough job these days. I have been one once so I know all about it..Now since I am sick, I need to rely on other trainers to teach my greenies things I cannot do anymore.

    Bottom line is, I got overall very good experiences with some trainers, good service and feedback, excellent results, happy greenies.
    BUT I also got kick out of a big place simply because I have pointed out the saddle was not fitting the greeny..got insulted and lost money also..

    So even if you check, even if you think because you are dealing by supposely big names that everything will be fine..Beware !

    At the end of the day, horse's owner is always the one that pay for the job undone and it is always the horse that suffer. There is a couple of people that should realise this before taking people's money in their pocket.
    Élène

    Fighting ovarian cancer ! 2013 huge turnaround as I am winning the battle !..
    http://esergerie.wordpress.com



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