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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2005
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    589

    Default WWYD - Farrier messed up drill & tap & had to have show farrier fix

    In late October, when my farrier came for his regular re-shoeing for my horse, I asked him to also drill & tap for an upcoming show on the grass. He did so. Cost is $160 for re-shoeing & extra $20 for drill & tap.

    Fast forward 1.5 weeks to show. Trying to put regular-sized studs into shoes & they just rotate around. In short, holes are just a smidge too big. Don't know how this happened, but horse was already trailered to show, blah blah, so in short, I wasn't gonna not show or move to a different level to show on dirt footing, so I had no choice but to have show farrier re-drill & re-tap shoes (he just did another hole in same shoes). It worked out fine, show went well. Show farrier charged $150 for this work.

    I immediately called regular farrier to inform him of issue (thinking he probably used wrong drill bit & problem may arise with other horses he has drilled & tapped). Farrier has been my horse's farrier for over 8 years (I've owned horse for nearly 5 years). I like farrier, horse stays sound and moves well (at 17). I don't want or intend to fire farrier over this. Farrier was very apologetic, says he always screws a stud into each hole as he tops & doesn't know how this happened. Farrier says I of course don't have to pay for the drill & tap, which was $20.

    But, after taking that $20 into account, I am still out $130 for the horse show farrier re-do. Times are tough and this is an unexpected expense. I did my part to be responsible, get horse drilled & tapped before show, I don't think I should have to bear the burden of the extra cost when it was my farrier's fault. Just because I show doesn't mean I'm made of money. How am I supposed to trust that studs will work the next time my farrier drills and taps? (Answer is I won't, I will screw in studs to make sure they work BEFORE horse leaves for show). On the other hand, he did re-shoe my horse that day as well, so he does deserve compensation for that service.

    What would you do? Do I pay my farrier to $160 I owe him for the re-shoe & just eat the $130 for the horse show farrier? Do I pay my farrier $30 (the difference) for the re-shoe? Do I split it down the middle? I don't want to be unfair to him, but I don't want to be unfair to me either...ugh.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2002
    Location
    Chesterton, IN US
    Posts
    1,390

    Default

    As my mama told me, life isn't fair. If it is normally a great farrier and the horse is sound, I'd just chalk it up to experience and let it go. Good farriers are hard to find and even harder to keep.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2008
    Posts
    7,959

    Default

    Yep, you eat it. And next time you are right -- try your studs at home, right after your farrier the job, to make sure it's going to work and so there are no surprises at the show. The horse show is no place to be trying the studs for the first time. Lesson learned.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 8, 2006
    Location
    B.C. Canada
    Posts
    1,919

    Default

    Having had more than a few amusing conversations around this with my farrier over the years/(long term family friend farrier)

    Your options basically are:
    Suck it up- pay your farrier and keep a good farrier
    Don't pay him and start looking for a new farrier today. Oh and maybe remove the shoes he put on and mail em back too -
    While the product wasn't perfect.. your horse is still wearing the shoes your main farrier put on right? So you are still in possession of such.

    He isn't charging you for his error, however the fact that to fix the error you were charged by a completely different farrier a grossly inflated charge to fix (imo) is also not his issue - that was your choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExJumper View Post
    Sometimes I'm thrown off, sometimes I'm bucked off, sometimes I simply fall off, and sometimes I go down with the ship. All of these are valid ways to part company with your horse.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Posts
    2,703

    Default

    He's not charging you the extra $20. He still need to be paid for the rest of the work. I imagine he would have fixed the problem for free if you had noticed in time, but since you didn't and made the choice to have it fixed by the show farrier, that is your cost not his. Yes, it stinks and you shouldn't be expected to check the stud holes, but unless you want to be finding a new farrier, you need to see that he is treating the problem ethically and fair. The farrier seems like a nice guy given his response, I bet he'll bend over backwards for you in the future knowing he made the mistake and it cost you a reshoeing. Do mention it to him so he knows, but don't expect him to give you your next shoe job for free.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
    Location
    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
    Posts
    15,607

    Default

    Let it go.

    If you had tried to screw in a set of test studs the same day, you would have known in time for your farrier to make it right, and you would not have had to pay the show farrier to do repairs at the show, under time pressure.

    In addition, it's actually pretty unlikely that your farrier made the holes "a smidge too big". He's not working with an array of subtly different drill bits and taps. He's just going to have the one size.

    It is possible he cross-threaded when he tapped them. But, if he tested them, that should have been fine. I'm assuming they're steel shoes. If for some reason they're aluminum, you could have cross-threaded them just trying to screw a stud in.

    What's more likely is that the threads were damaged between the time they were drilled and when you got to the show. This is easy to do with mud, dirt, and day to day riding.

    Next time, when the farrier is done, try them the same day. Put your studs in. Then, plug the holes properly with oiled cotton plugs.

    The day before your leave, test them, clean, and replug again. You do this now so you'll have plenty of time to deal with any issues, and so you'll have as easy a time as possible putting the studs in at the show, when time is more dear. Now, you will have accumulated some dirt and grime. Your stud kit should include a tap that can be used to clean out the threads.

    Note that this is the very same tool used to cut the threads. If you try to force the tap in at an angle, if you push too hard to clear dirt without backing out, or are otherwise uncareful, you can damage the threads and create the very problem you describe.

    Practice, practice, practice.

    I realize it's not fair that you had to pay the extra cost. But hey, life isn't fair, especially with horses. Emergency costs are just part of the fun. Be zen about it and be glad it was only money, that you still were able to ride, and that you weren't incurring costs because of an injury or something worse.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2007
    Location
    Comanche, TX
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    forward ride in gray

    In late October, when my farrier came for his regular re-shoeing for my horse, I asked him to also drill & tap for an upcoming show on the grass. He did so. Cost is $160 for re-shoeing & extra $20 for drill & tap.

    Fast forward 1.5 weeks to show. Trying to put regular-sized studs into shoes & they just rotate around. In short, holes are just a smidge too big. Don't know how this happened, but horse was already trailered to show, blah blah, so in short, I wasn't gonna not show or move to a different level to show on dirt footing, so I had no choice but to have show farrier re-drill & re-tap shoes (he just did another hole in same shoes). It worked out fine, show went well. Show farrier charged $150 for this work.

    I immediately called regular farrier to inform him of issue (thinking he probably used wrong drill bit & problem may arise with other horses he has drilled & tapped). Farrier has been my horse's farrier for over 8 years (I've owned horse for nearly 5 years). I like farrier, horse stays sound and moves well (at 17). I don't want or intend to fire farrier over this. Farrier was very apologetic, says he always screws a stud into each hole as he tops & doesn't know how this happened. Farrier says I of course don't have to pay for the drill & tap, which was $20.

    But, after taking that $20 into account, I am still out $130 for the horse show farrier re-do. Times are tough and this is an unexpected expense. I did my part to be responsible, get horse drilled & tapped before show, I don't think I should have to bear the burden of the extra cost when it was my farrier's fault. Just because I show doesn't mean I'm made of money. How am I supposed to trust that studs will work the next time my farrier drills and taps? (Answer is I won't, I will screw in studs to make sure they work BEFORE horse leaves for show). On the other hand, he did re-shoe my horse that day as well, so he does deserve compensation for that service.

    What would you do? Do I pay my farrier to $160 I owe him for the re-shoe & just eat the $130 for the horse show farrier? Do I pay my farrier $30 (the difference) for the re-shoe? Do I split it down the middle? I don't want to be unfair to him, but I don't want to be unfair to me either...ugh.


    Screw-in calks (aka, studs) are commercially available in 3/8" 16t and 5/16" 18t. If your farrier drilled and tapped the shoes for 3/8" at the barn and tested the fit with a 3/8" calk, maybe somebody tried to put a 5/16" calk into a 3/8" hole.

    There's an easy way to test this proposition: Screw a 3/8" bolt with coarse (16t) threads into the old holes. If it fits, your farrier doesn't owe you a nickle; if not, his testing procedure was mighty sloppy. Most H/J show farriers won't have anything but 3/8" 16t taps on the truck.
    Tom Stovall, CJF
    No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
    Location
    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
    Posts
    15,607

    Default

    Interesting, Tom. I hadn't realized there was anyone selling 5/16" studs. I've never had a farrier ask me the size, nor have I come across different sizes when buying them.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2007
    Posts
    2,900

    Default

    I would certainly pay him for the shoes, he did the work and the shoes are fine. It's just the drill and tap that was the problem, which he said you don't owe him for. It does stink that you had to pay so much to the show farrier, but you now know to test your studs several days before the show. I would not expect him to refund me the show farrier fees if you want to keep him as your farrier.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 8, 2001
    Location
    up the hill from the little river (that floods alarmingly often)
    Posts
    3,626

    Default

    Let it slide this time, but next time he drills/taps, check each hole before he leaves, so if there are any issues, you can get it fixed immediately.
    Full-time bargain hunter.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2006
    Posts
    2,703

    Default

    Poltroon makes excellent points! It makes a lot of sense that thread damage occured between when they were originally tapped and when you went to put the stud in. How many stud holes did you try?

    It does seem unlikely that even an inexperienced farrier would drill and tap the wrong size. Even if he used his drill for something else and forgot, he would notice the normal tapping wasn't making any threads (its very obvious for feel and seeing the metal spiral string that comes out of the hole).

    In that case it's not really anyone's fault.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2005
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onelanerode View Post
    Let it slide this time, but next time he drills/taps, check each hole before he leaves, so if there are any issues, you can get it fixed immediately.
    This.

    I guess I already knew deep down that of course I will pay him for the work he did. I'm a decent person, he's a decedent person & this is the first time anything like this has happened. Frankly, as this was my first time showing on the grass at this particular venue, it was worth the extra $130 as it was really really fun (open water, banks, etc in my little Mo J/Am classes).

    Incidentally, I've had him drill & tap horse before with no issue, same studs and all. These are regular/normal-sized studs. It was actually the grooms (very experienced horsemen) who found the problem & told me about it. When I took horse over to the show farrier, he took off one shoe & drilled his tap thingy (sorry, I don't know all the official terms) into the already-drilled & tapped hole & it fit & wouldn't come out. He didn't believe me that the studs wouldn't fit & asked if we were using some weird sized studs. I then went and got some of the studs from our barn & brought them to show farrier, who then witnessed the same phenomena with the stud that was just a smidge different & once he drilled & tapped a new hole in same shoe, said stud fit perfectly.

    So I know something had changed with my regular farrier's set-up (as opposed to the holes stretching or the threads being damaged) as I'd had horse drilled & tapped over the summer & the same studs from my barn were fine. And on several other occasions before I was with this barn, same farrier's drilling & tapping has been fine with my own set of studs. Further, this farrier always plugs studs with appropriate oiled cotton plugs. Also, the chances of every single thread being damaged seems pretty slim to me, but, again, I'm just the rider who like to show on grass sometimes, I do have my own stud kit but that does not make me a stud expert my any means. FWIW, show farrier said it seemed like my farrier had used just the next size up drill bit. It was a very odd occurrence.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 21, 2005
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flyracing View Post
    Poltroon makes excellent points! It makes a lot of sense that thread damage occured between when they were originally tapped and when you went to put the stud in. How many stud holes did you try?

    It does seem unlikely that even an inexperienced farrier would drill and tap the wrong size. Even if he used his drill for something else and forgot, he would notice the normal tapping wasn't making any threads (its very obvious for feel and seeing the metal spiral string that comes out of the hole).

    In that case it's not really anyone's fault.
    See the post I just added. That's why it was so weird when the show farrier put his tap drill in & it stuck! But the studs would not stay! But then they did stay when show farrier used his same tap drill to tap the new holes. Soooo strange!

    I will say, this is the farthest out I remember drilling & tapping. Usually I try to time it closer to the show, like less than a week. This time was a week and a half. That (other than human error or immaculate phenomena), seems to be the only changed factor.

    Ok, here's a dumb question: Part of the trail was closed that week & I had to go around & walk on asphalt for maybe 50 feet or so. THis was 2x a day for 3 days (to my trainer's barn & back home). I remember being paranoid that it would "mess up" the holes, but I chalked that up to paranoia not based in reality. Could walking on asphalt alter the shaping of the holes/threads?



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2007
    Location
    Comanche, TX
    Posts
    1,242

    Default

    poltroon in gray

    Interesting, Tom. I hadn't realized there was anyone selling 5/16" studs. I've never had a farrier ask me the size, nor have I come across different sizes when buying them.


    5/16" screw-ins are/were used mostly for narrow web (usu. pony, donkey) shoes. Please see http://www.centaurforge.com/2008%20catalog%20web.pdf The link is two years old and, since Mustad bought up the world, I don't think they're making anything but 3/8" nowadays.

    Kinda a shame because a hole tapped for a 3/8" screw-ins in a shoe with a 1/2" web (read: lots of QH, pony, donk shoes) don't leave a helluva lot of wiggle room (1/16", .0625" on either side) - but hey, Mustad rules the farrier roost and the corporate bottom line always takes precedence over the needs of the horse (pony, donk) or farrier.

    Somewhere out in the shop, I've probably got a Folgers can full of 5/16" screw-ins left from my hunter pony days - but I'd hate to have my life depend on finding them.
    Tom Stovall, CJF
    No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2002
    Location
    Azle, Teh-has
    Posts
    7,967

    Default

    I actually had this kind of happen to me too (this month).

    My farrier tapered the holes. They look lovely and are done properly but tapering the holes took off a few millimeters worth of thread that I needed.

    The studs took many tries [screwing] on my part and still then barely found the thread and still then they were held in only by the ends. I lost one on course.
    I'll eat it and next time show my farrier what the issue was.

    I also had an issue a few years back with a friends farrier doing my horse right before traveling 14 hours to a HT.
    I told them, "reuse the shoes he has now" (which were drilled and had clips).
    The farrier made new dinky lil shoes and didn't put on clips.
    My horse lost every shoe--TWO of them at the show--one on the XC course, the others at home.
    I ate it...and I ate the charge of the farrier on site at the show.

    I had a few not so nice things to say at the time. : )

    life sucks--and then you run XC.
    http://kaboomeventing.com/
    http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
    Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!



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