[Ritazza]

In-between bouts of packing I am doing some internet-perusing and peeking around a bit at upper-level eventing sires with proven offspring. What I can't seem to find is a stallion that has proven offspring that are both sane AND sound.... it seems like often times you get one or the other. Brilliant athletes who are incredibly difficult to deal with, or brilliant athletes who you have to hold together with duct tape and superglue. Clearly this can't possibly be the case all the time... Or is it just a fact of life that an UL horse is going to have some weird temperament issues? You know I kid, but I am interested to see sanity AND longevity built into offspring - what UL stallions offer that?

[JER]

What I can't seem to find is a stallion that has proven offspring that are both sane AND sound....

It would be helpful if you could cite the trees up which you've been barking.

Which stallions have led you to this conclusion?

it seems like often times you get one or the other. Brilliant athletes who are incredibly difficult to deal with, or brilliant athletes who you have to hold together with duct tape and superglue. Clearly this can't possibly be the case all the time...

Again, some context would help. Who are you talking about?

While you're always going to have some variation in offspring, there are stallions who consistently produce athletes who have reasonably long careers and are very trainable/rideable.

Or is it just a fact of life that an UL horse is going to have some weird temperament issues?

Not at all -- although the tendency is to be more tolerant of quirks in an outstanding athlete who really delivers.

You know I kid, but I am interested to see sanity AND longevity built into offspring - what UL stallions offer that?

What are your criteria for 'sanity' and 'longevity'? Is 'sanity' defined as 'rideable' or 'trainable' or 'easy to handle on the ground'? 'Longevity' is for how long, across which disciplines and to what level?

[columbus]

You need to do research about UL horses themselves not just who their sire is. There are a few UL eventers raised to be UL eventers, there are UL eventers left by default because their temperaments made them un salable to amateurs for money so they stayed with the pros BECAUSE they were pro rides not because they were purchased to be UL competitors. PatO

[EventStrong]

I worked with many upper level stallions(eventers/jumpers/dressage/hunters) in a particular barn while I was growing up. Everyone of them, with one exception, was sane enough for me to work with in the barn and take out for a hack or cross country school as a barely Prelim level rider.

With that said, every one of them also had some type of eccentricity that was magnified when they were extremely fit. They also all had a tendency to injure themselves in some crazy way. They weren't prone to being unsound, they were prone to getting injured! One had a stick break off in his foreleg while playing in the field right before he was to travel to Burghley. The vet cleaned it up, he went and ran clean and fast...came home and lo and behold he still had part of the stick in his leg!

I think you can absolutely find both in a stallion, the problem is their are few UL stallions to begin with. Also, those most readily available are going to be the ones that had the talent but are no longer sound(mind or body) to continue.

[VicarageVee]

There was a very long and productive discussion about eventing sires (as JER knows) on the sport horse breeding board. Perhaps you could read through that if you're interested in hearing more about event sires. Just search for it. It was called, eventing sires: thinking outside of the box, or somesuch.

I'm get the sense that at least 2 of "tempermental" sires you must be referring to are Bounce (Brandenburg's Windstar) and Riverman, who have been known to throw some difficult babies--but again, it always depends on how they were started, etc, etc, etc.

In any case, I will take this moment to mount my favorite soap box:

YOU'VE GOT TO START WITH THE MARE! what ever good you get from the stallion is just gravy, baby.

[yellowbritches]

YOU'VE GOT TO START WITH THE MARE! what ever good you get from the stallion is just gravy, baby.

100% agree. So does Bruce Davidson. Go find the video of his talk at the convention last year. He makes it VERY clear that good babies come from good mommies (and, really, if anyone were to know it would be him). If you have a lunatic of a mare, you can breed her to the quietest, sweetest boy on earth and you're still very likely to have a lunatic for a baby.

[TSHEventing]

MARE MARE MARE MARE

BUT

I wondering how much of the "quirky" attitude projected on these stallions by ammies are actually a result of an ammie training their horse for the same time?

I have heard A Fine Romance has a wonderful 'tude as well as Salute the Truth, but I have not actually met these stallions or seen their offspring.

I have heard that CD and Fleetwater Opposition are quirky.. I have no idea what that means. lol.

[JER]

I wondering how much of the "quirky" attitude projected on these stallions by ammies are actually a result of an ammie training their horse for the same time?

When a breeding facility keeps a special eye on the Rivermans, I don't think it's about ammy training. (FWIW, this place found that intervening early with strict rules turned these foals into solid citizens. Even with the one who enjoyed cornering and attacking its mum on the day it was born. )

[VicarageVee]

When a breeding facility keeps a special eye on the Rivermans, I don't think it's about ammy training. (FWIW, this place found that intervening early with strict rules turned these foals into solid citizens. Even with the one who enjoyed cornering and attacking its mum on the day it was born. )

Hey! I have a Riverman baby! And he is as sweet as can be... And he's fancy... And brave... And, yeah, sometimes he bites... And, ok, so he bucks... But have I mentioned he's dappled?? And adorable??

So what if he's kind of a tyrant... At least he's a talented tyrant... right?!!!?? riiiiight?????

[yellowbritches]

When a breeding facility keeps a special eye on the Rivermans, I don't think it's about ammy training. (FWIW, this place found that intervening early with strict rules turned these foals into solid citizens. Even with the one who enjoyed cornering and attacking its mum on the day it was born. )

Seriously?? Well, that certainly explains the one and only Riverman baby I've dealt with. He was a total crackhead. If he wasn't trying to kill the humans, he was trying to kill himself (and take the humans down with him in a fiery ball of glory).

[JER]

Okay. Backstory on the Riverman foal who repeatedly cornered and kicked the crap out of her mom.

The foal was an ET foal and the mare was a surrogate. As I watched the tiny thing go on the attack, I asked the BM questions about the biological mom.

As it turned out, I knew her. She was certifiable. She was fine under saddle but would stand in her stall kicking and screaming if there was a horse anywhere near her. She had to be in an end stall and she could not see/hear/feel another horse. Or she screamed and kicked, all day and all night.

Her scream didn't sound like a horse scream. It sounded like a woman being attacked at 30 second-intervals, followed by a massive bang from the kick. And it never ceased, not even during feeding time.

Perhaps not a mare to breed to anything, let alone Riverman.

[yellowbritches]

Okay. Backstory on the Riverman foal who repeatedly cornered and kicked the crap out of her mom.

The foal was an ET foal and the mare was a surrogate. As I watched the tiny thing go on the attack, I asked the BM questions about the biological mom.

As it turned out, I knew her. She was certifiable. She was fine under saddle but would stand in her stall kicking and screaming if there was a horse anywhere near her. She had to be in an end stall and she could not see/hear/feel another horse. Or she screamed and kicked, all day and all night.

Her scream didn't sound like a horse scream. It sounded like a woman being attacked at 30 second-intervals, followed by a massive bang from the kick. And it never ceased, not even during feeding time.

Perhaps not a mare to breed to anything, let alone Riverman.

Holy hand grenades!!! WHY would anyone want to make another one of those!!?!?!!

[ThirdCharm]

Because they told themselves "She must have had a bad experience when she was younger, it's not HER" until they believed it.

Sometimes nutty horses are just NUTTY!

[elizabeth Callahan]

I bred my Riverman mare to A Fine Romance and got a wonderful temperament ( but she still has the Riverman buck now and again. If they can buck, they can jump - or so I'm told ). The mare was one of the less difficult Riverman offspring, but I think Fred really added some more sense to the mix

But you all know the saying that" genius is close to madness" and I think that is true sometimes in horses as well as people....

[vineyridge]

The only Riverman I've ever met personally was a bats**t crazy stallion who should have been gelded before he ever met a mare.

[JER]

Holy hand grenades!!! WHY would anyone want to make another one of those!!?!?!!

Perhaps because she didn't live across the street from the mare, like I did.

(Neighborhood did eventually make mare move elsewhere. Too much sleep deprivation.)

[Fred]

I bred my Riverman mare to A Fine Romance and got a wonderful temperament ( but she still has the Riverman buck now and again. If they can buck, they can jump - or so I'm told ). The mare was one of the less difficult Riverman offspring, but I think Fred really added some more sense to the mix

Thank you Elizabeth! I'm glad your beautiful filly is such a good girl.

Dad, aka A Fine Romance can buck! LOL and JUMP... he simply CHOOSES not to buck when you are on him, thank God.
I always thought he was just taking pity on me.
Even now, at close to 20, he makes me laugh at the height and enthusiasm he puts into his leaps and bucks. It's jawdropping.

He has always had what can only be called a capriole - but he combines his athleticism with a great work ethic and willingness, and quiet self-confidence.
When you get on - he goes to work.

He tends to pass that courage,willing nature and intelligence, along with a great canter/gallop on.
Sometimes you get the 'capriole' too..

[TSHEventing]

I had a riverman... batsh** crazy. Literally got himself killed. Had a buck like you wouldn't believe, when absolutely crazy, jumped a 5 1/2 foot metal gate, slammed into my truck and ran miles down the road and got hit by a car. Vet said if he didn't get hit he probably would have given himself an aneurysm, and I should be glad he did it when I WASN'T on him.

He was the most absolutely amazingly sweet thing on the ground. Took to longing and ground work with such grace.. First couple rides after he was backed were amazing.. he was perfect, wonderful... then he just.. snapped.

That was a Riverman bred to an exceptionally quiet ISH mare. Never again.

[ivy62]

I have always been told that the mare is the most important part of the equation. If you have a stellar mare and breed her to a good stallion you have a good chance in a good horse; if you bred a so-so mare to a stellar stallion better chance of okay horse. personally, I like Coconut Grove. I know he was a jumper but seems to have enough presents, bone and mind that when crossed with the right mare you get a nice sporthorse....

[ponygirl]

I have a Riverman. She gives kids rides. She's easy on the ground and adapts to whatever is tossed her way. Vets love her as does my farrier which says something. Very talented mare but for a more experienced rider due to her been sensitive and keen to aids. No buck, no rear, but like driving a sports car. Her dam is the epitome of ammie friendly. That all being said, had she been raised in inexperienced hands... She's currently with my good friend baywithchrome who can attest to how easy she is. Hopefully she decides to be easy and catch in the spring like a good girl!

I have a Coconut Grove. She's an interesting horse. She's just currently getting fatter by the day with a Cunningham foal. Talent is there as is some personality.