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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mg View Post
    Oh, definitely! I think it is still very brave and commendable that they are willing to testify, and I thank them for that. I guess I differ from others in my ability to react, so I will reserve judgment
    Oh definitely. I myself am a bit of a bulldog when it comes to horse abuse or unsafe situations, and I've definitely made some enemies. I really didn't interpret your tone as cutting down the witness so much, but I've seen a lot of that online--people who have never been in that situation in their lives, but feel comfortable shouting about how they would have handled it and how the person in question should have, so I like to speak up.

    It's so funny how it works. I've seen people who have no problem speaking up in other situations not be able to say a word when they see something bad around horses. I'm a bit of the opposite--too nice to people in other situations, but do something cruel to a horse and you can't shut me up. It's just about where we're confident and what we're psychologically prepared for, I think.



  2. #42
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Sonesta...best of luck with this case and go hand out lollipops and ass-whuppings. (and make sure you're out of lollipops first)
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  3. #43
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye in the Sky View Post
    The fact that the woman was told not to ever tie the horse is particularly disturbing.
    If she was told not to tie him and why, and then did so, and this happened, does it make it 'premeditated'?
    I mean, does it take a rocket scientist to understand what kinds of injuries tying this horse, and then whipping him [if in fact that is what happened] could end up causing?



  4. #44
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    Feb. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    If she was told not to tie him and why, and then did so, and this happened, does it make it 'premeditated'?
    I mean, does it take a rocket scientist to understand what kinds of injuries tying this horse, and then whipping him [if in fact that is what happened] could end up causing?
    I know those may be rhetorical, but my answers would be possibly (I'd say yes but I don't know the law), and heck no.

    I can only speak for myself, but I have had people try to put horses in training with me with the stipulation that I never tie them. 3 times, to be exact. Twice, I said no, because I felt the horse was simply spoiled and I didn't want to work with that (and not even the horse, but the owner who created the problem and didn't seem willing to learn). But once, I took a horse in training who had been traumatized due to tying (I never did figure out how, nor did the owners as he came to them that way) but he ground-tied easily and it worked with their goals and so I was happy to work with him, and he was a great horse.

    But if you say you'll never tie a horse, you don't. And you sure don't beat a hard-to-tie horse whenever they move, if that in fact happened.



  5. #45
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    NY
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    I guess that is what I am saying, any decent trainer knows that pushing that limit in a truly fearful horse will end badly for one or both involved... and therefore if she is the trainer she says she is, and did indeed tie him, after being told he does not and should not be tied... well who else is to blame for this horses death, whips or no whips? And if she indeed whipped him while tied... this result should have been expected by a trainer such as she.
    I'll also never understand pushing that envelope... my horse does not tie, but he ground ties and cross ties [as I understand this horses did], so why would I ever, every risk training him to single tie when I have so many other decent options.



  6. #46
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    Jan. 31, 2010
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    One of the first truly OTTB's I worked with was a lovely chestnut gelding who was an absolute love in every respect except for his tying issue - the problem was not that he couldn't be tied, it was that he couldn't be tied and left alone. We all knew this.

    Unfortunately, another rider who came in one day was not told by the trainer (never did learn why this information was not passed to her) and when the rider walked a few feet away out of the horse's sight, he flipped himself backwards out of fear/anxiety. Thank GOD he was on a quick-release tie as well as had on a break-away halter (both did their jobs) because he likely would have strangled himself the way he was thrashing!

    I say this to convey that there are some horses that are a danger to themselves and others if tied and there is a good reason to not tie them or not leave them alone while tied - some horses come to us with very odd quirks - if you do not want to deal with them, that's fine - don't allow them in your barn. But if you agree to accept one of these "special needs" horses, you have to accept that you are not magical and you are not going to be the mystical goddess or god that fixes the unfixable issue. If the owner gives a boundary, just follow it or do not accept them into your program. While you may be correct that the horse is spoiled (we've all seen those cases, right?), it is still your decision as to whether to take said horse even if the owner says they do not want "A" done, like CosMonster did.

    The trainer in question was wrong on many levels. Even if the owner asked for the tying issue to be worked on, it was done recklessly and inhumanely.



  7. #47
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    Feb. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye in the Sky View Post
    The trainer in question was wrong on many levels. Even if the owner asked for the tying issue to be worked on, it was done recklessly and inhumanely.
    That's what it really comes down to, isn't it? I try to avoid too much speculation, so I won't go trying to assign blame except to say that it is never acceptable to do what this trainer allegedly did.

    Angela Freda, I agree with you. As a trainer, I do get paid to push the envelope to a degree. In order to progress, you have to push a horse's comfort zone somewhat (same with people). The art comes in knowing what is expanding boundaries, and what is pushing too much.

    Sounds like this trainer doesn't just push the envelope, she blows up the whole darn mailbox. Even if she went her whole career without killing a horse, that wouldn't be okay, that would just be luck.



  8. #48
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    Mar. 10, 2009
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    Check out this "Public Notice" on Callegari's page regarding this tragic turn of events:

    http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice.html

    Sonesta may not have too hard a time with this one, because the defendants may just sink themselves. Callegari apparently has yet to lawyer up. If they have hired legal representation, then it looks as if they are ignoring counsel. To my (admittedly untrained) eye, parts of this "notice" suggest some subtle witness intimidation tactics.
    Last edited by Mara; Dec. 23, 2010 at 09:08 AM.



  9. #49
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    Nov. 15, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    Check out this "Public Notice" on Callegari's page regarding this tragic turn of events:

    http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice.html

    Sonesta may not have too hard a time with this one, because the defendants my just sink themselves. Callegari apparently has yet to lawyer up. If they have hired legal representation, then it looks as if they are ignoring counsel. To my (admittedly untrained) eye, parts of this "notice" suggest some subtle witness intimidation tactics.
    Holy cow. That is... pretty bad.
    Someone somewhere described the facility and it sounds like there are many places someone could be there and no one see them... so how can they possibly have ID'd everyone on 'sight' and have already talked to them. Honestly if I had a horse there and witnessed this and felt I could not intervene at the time, I certainly would not talk to the owners after the fact. I don't know that legally that [talking to the farm owners or their lawyer] can be required either. Sonesta?

    Wonder what they let the other trainer go for... must have been pretty damned bad if they let that one go but are keeping this one! Regardless of the current allegations, this one has been seen have hissy fits in the past, so they know what they've got there, right? And yet they keep her?



  10. #50
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Paris, Kentucky
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    Check out this "Public Notice" on Callegari's page regarding this tragic turn of events:

    http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice.html

    Sonesta may not have too hard a time with this one, because the defendants may just sink themselves. Callegari apparently has yet to lawyer up. If they have hired legal representation, then it looks as if they are ignoring counsel. To my (admittedly untrained) eye, parts of this "notice" suggest some subtle witness intimidation tactics.
    WOW! Holy intimidation batman!
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
    LIKE us on Facebook!



  11. #51
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    Apr. 6, 2010
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    LMAO well technically the witness is not withholding information. Witness is just choosing who to tell their information to. Which is well within their protected 1st amendment rights Hopefully Sonesta has already told the witness to keep quiet and short of a subpoena or questioning by the cops a company has 0 legal ground to stand on for this little escapade. Nice try Callegari but I don't think bullying is the right way to go.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  12. #52
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    Mar. 26, 2008
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    I like how the notice says there weren't any witnesses, but then threatens anyone who was a witness who won't give them information.
    "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"



  13. #53
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    Feb. 20, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by mg View Post
    I like how the notice says there weren't any witnesses, but then threatens anyone who was a witness who won't give them information.
    I personally love how anyone not talking about the incident "will be libel". Grammar aside, keeping your trap shut generally does not result in charges of libel/slander



  14. #54
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    Apr. 29, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    I personally love how anyone not talking about the incident "will be libel". Grammar aside, keeping your trap shut generally does not result in charges of libel/slander
    Holly
    www.ironhorsefrm.com
    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
    LIKE us on Facebook!



  15. #55
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    Dec. 13, 2005
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    Strasburg, PA "Just west of Paradise"
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    This the lead line on what they have to say about their trainer:

    Callegari is proud to announce that we now offer the skillset of Alisija at our stable. She was brought in solely to train our own herd of million dollar babies - or their Daddys you could say!!



  16. #56
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    Mar. 26, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    I personally love how anyone not talking about the incident "will be libel". Grammar aside, keeping your trap shut generally does not result in charges of libel/slander
    Hahaha, I thought they were making a horrible attempt at spelling "liable." Though who knows with that site (or should I say sight?).
    "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"



  17. #57
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    May. 11, 2009
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    Dairyville USA
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    I honestly don't think anyone is required to tell them anything-so long as the witness has come forward SOMEHOW to SOMEONE like a lawyer or law enforcement, the Callegaris will find out all their information once they get to court ( whatever it's called-the one side has to share info with the other right?)
    Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
    Sam: A job? Does it pay?
    Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
    Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.



  18. #58
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    Sep. 20, 2010
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    Grataan - It's Discovery.

    This whole thing is just so sad, and so preventable. I really do hope the courts, SPCA, and Sonesta, throw the book at the trainer and farm.

    I can see, if for some reason tying is really important to you, trying to work through a horse's tying issues. I, however, have never found whipping a horse into a useless tizzy, to solve any issue. Not that it's a trick I have ever used!

    LBR

    Go get 'um Sonesta!!!!
    I reject your reality, and substitute my own- Adam Savage

    R.I.P Ron Smith, you'll be greatly missed



  19. #59
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    Dec. 13, 2005
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    The latest on Callegari's summary page. The defense begins.

    In addition, we have walked the property lines, and we have stood in the area in which the incident occurred, and you cannot physically see this area from any of our property lines.
    Therefore, it is physically impossible for a witness to have seen anything from off of the property. Further, do to the multiple structures, and restrictions, this area is obscured, and unable to be seen from very many places at all.
    So the trainer was hiding the horse while she "trained" it?



  20. #60
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    Mar. 4, 2004
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    Louisville, KY
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    Oh my good lord. Just when you thought people could not get any dumber. I hope Sonesta or someone close to the case is taking screen shots of that page.

    Caitlin
    Caitlin
    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01



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