jumpgirl, your posts are offensive as is the norm.
I never said that the Canadian registry was not a major registry so do NOT put words in my mouth. I believe that they are, but they are located in CANADA and not the US. When I said <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would not consider him for my approved mares unless he is approved with one of the major registries.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> I was speaking of the US groups. And, it was my understanding that he was approved with the Canadian groups BEFORE the Spencers purchased him, so they have not jumped through any hoops regarding the registries. He is now in the US, so it makes sense that he be approved with some of the US registries. I also agree that there is potential for major scams without proof of pedigree. Why is it wrong for mare owners to expect a proof of pedigree for their foals?
Popeye K has more than proven himself in the showring, but he has not yet proven himself as a producer in my mind. He is still too young. His website does not allow mare owners to view offspring or see performance results of those offspring.
On the subject of the warmblood registries discriminating against hunters, it's been a big aggrivation to me for years! The fact is that hunter breeders can sell their young horses (as a whole) for a lot more money at the age of three or four than dressage, eventers or jumpers. Not to mention, a large portion of the US market is HUNTERS!! So the registries are missing out on a big market.
The Dutch are the first to try to start a Hunter Studbook. However, they're faultering. Last year they were going to have seperate testing with HUNTER criteria for Hunter stallion approvals, now I'm told the Hunter stallion candidates have to be judged on the same criteria as the others -by the same judges and at the same time as the the dressge oriented stallions. Too bad, a step backwards in my opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> what is to stop unscrupulous breeders from marketing their foals by the stallion down the street as "Popeye K" babies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For starters, DNA testing available at very affordable prices! Also for Popeye, you need a breeders certificate in order to be nominated to IHF. His owner mails out your breeder's certificate only after the mare has been confirmed (by a vet) in foal.
Sporthorse South, he is breeding a lot of mares and they are being registered with the Canadian registry. Just because you support a quasi-european registry doesn't mean that canadian registered foals are "unregistered".
AS for shelling out big bucks. The hunter world doesn't necessarily pay big bucks until the horse turns at least three. To get the big bucks, that three year old better be showing something worthwhile under saddle. The hunter people are not so stupid to pay big bucks for something prancing around a triangle.
As far as animosity goes - a little like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think? I hark back to your wars with Ilona and the ISR.
I do support the idea of an American based registry based on the european model of testing and adapted to the U.S. sporthorse markets exactly like Canada did......oh, and exactly like Oldenburg, Belgian, Hanover and all the other warmblood registries in that they imported stallions from outside areas, bred to their own regional mares, approved the foals under their own region's name, and created their own inspection and testing criteria. Oh horror! To think we could actually COPY the europeans method and you die hard quasi-european registry souls don't want us too. Too bad.
God breathed life into the wind and created the horse.
Um, DNA testing can be done by UC Davis or UK for a nominal fee - with a rush order even - to prove parentage. Or, if you just have to have that paper stating pedigree, there is the PHR. No, it may not be perfect, but they can and do verify parentage and send out pedigrees that state such.
As for proving it without DNA? First of all, research the breeder... But other than that, some stallions really stamp their foals. Lord knows I can pick out an Absolut' from 30 paces! Will Popeye K be the same? Only time will tell (and with the ## of mares he's breeding that'll be a pretty short period of time LOL!!)
Regarding the Canadian Sport Horse Association and the Canadian Warmblood Association, how many members do they have in each? Also how many stallions and mares registered along with the number of foals produced and registered each year??? I know Canada has a much smaller population than the US so am wondering how large these organizations really are in comparison to our warmblood registries in the US. Also does Canada have a Hunter Association? Numbers please.
http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill
The last year I can find full stats for is 2003 for the CSHA and CWHBA.
CSHA - 592 members with a total of 13,275 horses registered up to the end of 2003. They have been around for approximately 80 years. Looking at their website there are currently 132 approved or licensed stallions listed.
CWHBA - 631 members with a total of 3,341 horses registered up to the end of 2003. They have been around for approximately 10-15 years. According to their website they have 127 approved of licensed stallions.
With either one of them if we have a mare that is approved with them, but chose to use a stallion that is approved with one of the "main" Warmblood registries we are still able to register the foal provided we show proof of the stallion's approvals.
Both the associations are focused on breeding not sport discipline, other than of course, we are breeding for sport. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/yes.gif They have very different histories and methods. (Cw = European / CSH = Hunter Improvement). Today, they have evolved to have such similar breeding goals and tarket markets that all indicators point to an amalagamation. I was told just 2 days ago the first meeting will be held at Spruce Meadows some time in April.
I'm curious to know how these numbers stack up against your American Association? And what about the Quasi-Europeans?
Another thing to consider, for Popeye's babies you have two registration options available no matter what the mare is:
1. To list the mare as a CWHBA appendix mare (which does not require inspection) and register the foal CWHBA.
2. To register the foal as a part-bred CSHA, where the mare does not need to be presented or approved.
If you want higher stud book CWHBA papers or full-bred CSHA papers the mare will need to be inspected. The other two options do however give an opportunity for the foal's pedigree to be documented and for papers to be passed on with the foal. It isn't that hard, really. Plus, as I said before, if there is demand I'm sure an inspection could be put together. I even know a stallion owner or two who might be interested http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif
Most people breeding to Popeye make the same decision I did 3 years ago when I decided to breed my (ISR/Old Premium) mare to a stallion who had not been (and will not be) presented to(or activated in) any American-based quasi-European registry. I made the decision because I thought this stallion the best for my mare and to me, breeding to the best possible horse is much more important than papers. As others have mentioned, there's DNA testing for proof of parentage. I'm getting mine through AWS-- PHR, AWR etc., etc., being other possibilities.
I'm not sure how long this thread will last if we end up pursuing our different arguments to their usual train wreck, BUT-- here goes:
When I argue against the quasi-European registries in this country, it is not my intention either to knock breeders or the horses they're producing. Quite the contrary, I argue against the present registry system because IMO, it ill serves both. It seems to me a matter of simple math that if a stallion owner is expected to pay the $ to keep his/her horse "registered" and/or "activated" to satisfy every mare owner walking down the path-- that's a whole lot less $ (and time) s/he has to spend on acquiring and supporting the horses. Hence, unless the stallion owner has bottomless pockets, it seems to me that the simple economic pressures of the quasi-European path would tend to push prices up and/or quality down. Hence, I really wish that mare owners who expect SO's to jump through all those hoops would consider the price attached to each hoop-- and who's likely to be paying for it in the end.
Popeye K is a good example of a stallion who, IMO, amply proves my point: the best horses out there don't need those designer brands either to sell or to attract mares. If his owner goes ahead and gets him approved Dutch (and/or whatever else) it seems to me that it will be because she can, not because she (or anyone else with a truly good horse) really "needs" the registry. For this horse, an inspection/approval will be what they all are in my book: just one more show, and not a very important one at that.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jumpgirl:
Sporthorse South, he is breeding a lot of mares and they are being registered with the Canadian registry. Just because you support a quasi-european registry doesn't mean that canadian registered foals are "unregistered". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh, jumpgirl - I never said that his Canadian-registered foals are "unregistered." If his hundreds of foals are being registered Canadian, then great - it's nice to know that all his foals are being registered SOMEWHERE.
BTW, GOV is not a "quasi-european" registry - it IS the Oldenburg Verband. And my feelings about ISR has nothing to do with this discussion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BTW, GOV is not a "quasi-european" registry - it IS the Oldenburg Verband. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And this is precisely the kind of brand-label argument/distinction that makes a lot of people's eyes roll! (My mare, BTW, was approved before the split-- and hence both registries would accept her and her offspring anyway-- if, of course, I wanted to pay the $$$$$ for this dubious privilege)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fish:
Popeye K is a good example of a stallion who, IMO, amply proves my point: the best horses out there don't need those designer brands either to sell or to attract mares. If his owner goes ahead and gets him approved Dutch (and/or whatever else) it seems to me that it will be because she can, not because she (or anyone else with a truly good horse) really "needs" the registry. For this horse, an inspection/approval will be what they all are in my book: just one more show, and not a very important one at that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, Fish. Popeye K is the poster boy for "the breed registries exist to serve the horses" and not the other way around. If Popeye K is never activated KWPN/NA or any other registry, the bigger loss is the loss to the registry that they cannot claim his offspring; more so than the loss to the offspring that they don't have that brand on their hips.
This mindset seems to be hard for many people to grasp -- I have noticed it over and over again in the thread(s) on the 100dt. Do the owners of stallion prospects need the registries/stallion approvals? Or do the registries need to court the owners of top stallion prospects to keep their registries viable and vital?
I think that the second attitude should be the correct one, while the organizers of the 100dt seem to think that the SO's need them and will come to their tests no matter what.
All it will take is a couple more "Popeye K's" not rushing to the WB registires for approval and the registires might begin to understand that they are not the end all and be all in the US that they are in Europe.
They would do well to remember the expression: "A leader without followers is just a man out taking a walk."
Don't Worry About Hurting My Feelings Because I Guarantee You, Not One Bit Of My Self Esteem Is Tied Up In Your Acceptance.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I know Rio Grande is quite a bit less, and I don't know about Jupiter, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rio Grande is $2,000 for fresh lfg and Jupiter is $2,500.
I think Popeye's fee is fair. I am pretty sure Nairobi's stud fee is also $2,500.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
A few weeks ago I posted here asking why breeders did not specialize in Hunters.
It does seem kind of insane, considering the number of people who do hunters and amount of money they're willing to spend for a halfway decent horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
...If Popeye K is never activated KWPN/NA or any other registry, the bigger loss is the loss to the registry that they cannot claim his offspring; more so than the loss to the offspring that they don't have that brand on their hips..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LH - Just to clarify, Popeye K did attend a Stallion Performance Test a few years ago. He passed with flying colours, and as such, is now approved by CWHBA. He is also lisenced with CSHA by virtue of his performance record.
I do think, though, that this is (as Jumpgirl keeps trying to point out) another area where we should be doing more of what the Europeans DO as opposed to what they SAY through the organizations here. If Popeye were in Europe, I suspect that one or more of the studs would have been out there trying to buy or lease him for use by their organization(s)-- I doubt very much that they'd be waiting around to see if his owner would pay to bring him to them. Holstein, for example, was out looking for improvement when they acquired Cor de la Bryere, and the same can be said for the numerous "outside" horses that have been brought in for use by the other European studs (e.g., the countless Holsteiners, TB's, etc., etc. used by the Dutch.)
Just another way of saying what you already have so well: if Popeye ends up being approved by a "European" Registry, wherever based, I think it will do more for the Registry than this marvelous horse. As things stand-- and the Canadians are happily pointing out-- Popeye is a great credit to and advertisement to the registry to which he does belong-- and he might even bring some wonderful U.S.-based horses into it!
Another example of how it's the horses that make the reputation for a registry, not the other way around.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by can't re-:
And next year I am expecting a hunter fool by Jupiter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If Popeye were in Europe, they'd probably be wanting to sell him over here. As Hunters are not the rage across the pond, and I doubt they'd consider him an improvement sire. Plus Voltaire sons are pretty well in abundance over there.
That and the mindset of horses being an Industry vs. Hobby is quite different. Breeding is a career, steeped in traditions, which usually include supporting one or more of the European Registries.