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  1. #1
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    Good News/Bad News! I was very surprised, and not very happy, to read on page 43 and 45 in a section entitled 'Edification And Enlightenment' in the Dec. 19th issue of the Chronicle a report on The Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program.

    The good news is that they are setting up an education program for young rider graduates from age 21-25 and have had an inaugural program which included lectures on business planning, judging and the L program, equestrian ethics and sportsmanship, the role of the veterinarian, legal issues for the equestrian, and how to find and keep sponsors.

    The BAD news is they also offered a lecture on how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif This report is from the USDF Convention. That is the U.S. (for United States) Dressage Federation. I think that the fact that they are trying to build a bridge between young riders and the adult riding world is admirable, but already this country's equestrian organizations don't really support young horses in that if you qualify for the national finals and MAY have a chance to go to Europe for the FEI Young Horse Championship, you have to sign a waiver that YOU will pay ALL expenses incurred in sending your young horse to Europe. Now the United States Dressage Federation is teaching young rider graduates how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif Why not just teach them the ins and outs of how to look at young horses and young horses in training and teach them what to look for and how to buy horses in general. Why, when our breeding programs in this country have come to the point of rivaling foals produced in Europe, are they teaching and basically encouraging young rider graduates to bypass young horses here and buy in Europe? And this by one of our National Organizations?

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

    [This message was edited by Tiki on Dec. 22, 2003 at 01:24 PM.]
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  2. #2
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    Good News/Bad News! I was very surprised, and not very happy, to read on page 43 and 45 in a section entitled 'Edification And Enlightenment' in the Dec. 19th issue of the Chronicle a report on The Advanced Young Riders Graduate Program.

    The good news is that they are setting up an education program for young rider graduates from age 21-25 and have had an inaugural program which included lectures on business planning, judging and the L program, equestrian ethics and sportsmanship, the role of the veterinarian, legal issues for the equestrian, and how to find and keep sponsors.

    The BAD news is they also offered a lecture on how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...s/icon_mad.gif This report is from the USDF Convention. That is the U.S. (for United States) Dressage Federation. I think that the fact that they are trying to build a bridge between young riders and the adult riding world is admirable, but already this country's equestrian organizations don't really support young horses in that if you qualify for the national finals and MAY have a chance to go to Europe for the FEI Young Horse Championship, you have to sign a waiver that YOU will pay ALL expenses incurred in sending your young horse to Europe. Now the United States Dressage Federation is teaching young rider graduates how to buy horses in Europe. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...n_rolleyes.gif Why not just teach them the ins and outs of how to look at young horses and young horses in training and teach them what to look for and how to buy horses in general. Why, when our breeding programs in this country have come to the point of rivaling foals produced in Europe, are they teaching and basically encouraging young rider graduates to bypass young horses here and buy in Europe? And this by one of our National Organizations?

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice

    [This message was edited by Tiki on Dec. 22, 2003 at 01:24 PM.]
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  3. #3
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    What a bunch of piss ants. Screw them. I can't wait to read what jack off in specific said that. The point of paying dues to USDF is what????

    Donna Ray
    Carson Farm
    www.sportequine.com



  4. #4
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    Thank you Tiki for bringing this to our attention. I'm looking further into this report.

    If it is all correct, I'm very disappointed that the USDF is supporting and encouraging purchasing a young horse in Europe, when we are all working so hard to produce high quality offspring here. My farm and those of many of my friends have been participating in the sporthorse breeding program sponsored by the USDF and Cosequin, since its inception. It is certainly not an inexpensive program for us to be participating in!

    Hopefully we can draw attention to the faux pas committed by the USDF when they scheduled this. It is a slap in the face to all US breeders, and to the sponsors of the USDFSHB program. The USDF needs to correct their intended action in offering this course.

    Best regards,
    Oakleigh

    ~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~ ~~~
    Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
    Oakleigh Sporthorses



  5. #5
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    I wasn't there. All I know is what I read. I am very curious about what their intention was. I think it is a slap in the face to a lot of people, especially breeders and trainers. Does our national organization really think we don't have good horses here? Well, actually, maybe we do already have the answer. Denny Emerson and Cheryl Frank have already said so. Now, someone in the USDF seems to be saying the same thing. I agree with you - we pay good money joining these organizations and supporting them through the Dressage SportHorse Breeding Shows, membership in the USDF and the (now) USEF and we get NO support in return. I still can't believe that our national organizations are telling people to go overseas to buy horses.

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  6. #6
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    One question came to my mind reading this:

    What do you think of Klaus Balkenhol a GERMAN as the trainer of the US dressage team ???
    Maybe he should stop training if you resent european background so much.
    Well and send back Brentina, Flim Flam, Nikolaus and maybe German stud Vorwerk should not support the American team to lend them their stallions.

    Just another point of view. (I for myself do not care about this at all, but one could really ask that question and stand up for it !)

    Alexandra


    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC

    http://alexandra-fischer.privat.t-online.de
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY



  7. #7
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    I think this a nice compliment to the European breeders from the USDF. I do not see why this is bad for the US breeders. Quality will always find its way, wether bred in Europe or the USA.

    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
    Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

    ***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***
    Gwendolyn
    http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
    Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians



  8. #8
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    Instead of getting mad, I'd start looking at WHY people are buying overseas.

    Breeding in this country IS wonderful. Unfortunately, the system for gettting those fantastic youngsters through the early stages of training in an economical fashion is not.

    Those of us with limited budgets and limited time to devote to training a youngster from the ground up are likely to continue shopping overseas until we address our systemic problem.

    Don't shoot the messenger. I agree that if the USDF is going to have a forum for buying horses overseas, they should ALSO have had a forum discussing American bred horses and how to improve the system.



  9. #9
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    My beef isn't in any way against buying horses in Europe. There's no way we could have come as far as we did in the breeding world without European sires and some of the outstanding mares we've been able to bring over.

    I also think our 'systems' of riding and training have a looooonnnnnggggg way to go, and that has been discussed on these boards.

    The problem I have is that instead of teaching young rider graduates how to buy a horse, what to look for, what to ask for in a pre-purchase vet exam, how to look at pedigrees and performance IN GENERAL, how to evaluate young stock, what to look for in a horse under saddle - the program appeared to focus specifically on how to buy a horse in Europe. We DO have good horses here. We need to be evaluating our horses, along with European horses, for future success. IMHO this should have been a general lecture on how to evaluate a horse for purchase and then let them buy where they find the best horse for them.

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  10. #10
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    I am not against purchasing European horses, or having German trainers, or German horses on the team.

    What I am concerned about is a national organization, supported by American dollars, is making a national statement that appears to endorse only European purchases.

    I agree with Tiki, a generic course on how to buy a horse, no matter the location, would be more correct, coming from an organization supported by American dollars.

    Where someone chooses to use the information they learn is up to them.

    I own imported horses, as well as domestic bred.

    Oakleigh

    ~~~~>>>>****~~*~~****<<<<~ ~~~
    Breeder of Superior Sport Horse Prospects.
    Oakleigh Sporthorses



  11. #11
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    I don't think we leverage the resources we have here in America. I spent many years starting young Arabians, TBs, Morgans and a few Warmbloods that trickled in under saddle...retraining ex-race horses, gettign into the mind of horses that rear or bolt (although I crossed rearing horses off my list two years ago). Now I'm in Texas and waiting for my "year and a haflings" to grow up so that I can start long lining and backing them, etc. I take my time with the young horses. Long line for a long time. Get on and off them, on and off, walk in lost of straight lines in fields and rush nothing. Make eveyrthing so that nothing is a surprise. It takes time, but horses trained and started in this manner carry this with them forever. At least my opinion.

    Sadly, in America, we have this "Quien es mas macho?" thread of "wonder training" where you create miracle horses in a day or three. Even Warmblood breeders in my area are sending their horses to cowboys to be sacked out and psyched out and the snake oil salesmen and their disciples profit, while those of us who were trained in what I understood to tbe the European way, are said to take too long and the process is too expensive. Some cute cowboy with a stache siddles up to a gal and starts the ..."Well sucks lil darlin, there ain't no need to pay for months of trainin to begin with...whai ah ken do that in thurty days..." and meanwhile check out the bits and paraphanlia and make sure hte horse isn't grounded and sat on ...etc.

    Meanwhile, when the show career starts, the owners find value in the European system.

    Now this isn't the entire problem, but I do think that many people don't want to invest a mere three months in getting a yuoungster off to a very good, fair start in the system framework the horse will be working in in the future. I think until this dicotomy is resolved, we will continue to have a disconnect here in America.

    Meanwhile, I'll take my time with my young horses and I'll know they'll be started right. I'm breeding for horses that I can personally ride and sell.

    I guess Pandora's box is still open.



  12. #12
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    I'm at home today, so I guess I can post. *sigh* Boy, do I miss my daily fix. :-(

    ANYWAY, Tiki, I don't blame you for being peeved. If I were in your shoes I would be yelling bloody murder. If I were ANY breeder I would be yelling bloody murder. I would be furious!

    Unfortunately, the issue, as we all know is training, as well as educating/developing the market for young horses, correctly started.

    I am here. LLDM is here and a variety of people (Sporthorse South, Leena, STF, ThirdCharm, Lady Farrier, Silly Mommy,... and more!) have commented on the two other threads.

    Can we put our collective heads together and come up with something to actually DO? If nothing else, a strong letter writing campaign to CoTH, USDF, USEF, etc., making proposals. I would also LOVE to get Janine Malone's POV on this. She singlehandedly started the USDF Breed shows ... and she knows a thing or three about getting things done.

    C'mon guys. NONE of you out there are doormats, and I quit being one when I left Bozo.

    Oh, and Tiki, I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I agree with you!!!

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  13. #13
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    Hijack away OM. We need all the help we can get. And Alexandra, PLEASE understand this is nothing against European horses, European markets, European trainers or anything else European. In fact, we are trying to emulate the European system - albeit perhaps with a bit of an American flavor - after all, we have problems no European country would have just due to the sheer size of this country.

    What we have a problem with - as breeders of really good sporthorses - my colt last year was high score champion for all of ISR/OLNA, and placed 4th by a whisker (just 0.7 points) out of 1st place for Colts of 2003 at Devon - is our National Organization holding a class for Young Rider Graduates teaching them NOT how to buy a horse, but how to buy a horse in Europe.

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  14. #14
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    Well, Tiki, can we start by getting a little more movement on this thread? Can you add some text to your title to indicate that we need input from everybody ... or maybe start a thread?

    Maybe we should try moving this to a private topic ... and try and get everyone in who would/could come up with an agreement/plan of action to move the whole issue more into the limelight. Can we start a committee of breeders who post here on CoTH ... that might represent everyone?

    I'm throwing ideas out there just to try and get something moving. How about getting everyone 'together' and writing an open letter from .... well, any breeder that wants to put their name to it .... that would be sent as a press release, to all the major horse publications, as well as posted on all the wide variety of horse sites?

    Posting on CoTH, complaining and getting angry/frustrated does not SOLVE anything.

    Does any of this make any sense?

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  15. #15
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    OK, I changed the title. I've also sent an email to the chairman of the USDF Breeder's Committee and my girlfriend was supposed to call USDF this morning to double check on what this lecture included. We've started with the steps.

    Again, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here and tell people they HAVE to buy American. Everyone should be able to buy the best match for their needs. I'm just torqued that this was written up as specifically teaching people how to buy horses in Europe, not an in general lecture on how to buy horses. We've just been through this long bashing from Denny Emerson telling us we don't know how to breed horses here and people should go to Europe to buy, and now here's The USDF telling people how to do it. We've all proposed venues like inspections and breed shows until we're blue in the face and it's like spitting in the wind.

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  16. #16
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    I think your point is a good one, but I suggest you step back for a moment and take a deep breath.

    I am quite certain that the USDF did not intend to slight American breeders; their intent was to help support this group of 21-25 year olds who currently get thrown to the wolves to try to figure out how to set themselves up as trainers. It's a noble goal and much needed.

    I expect what happened is that they were trying to draw up a curriculum based on the experts they had in their pocket and things they wish they had known 10-20 years ago when they were starting out. They weren't thinking about breeders, or breeding, AT ALL.

    So do write your letter. But don't assume they're dissing American horses - just assume they were thoughtless about it. Suggest alternatives AND if possible, suggest people who would be good teachers. I don't think that deleting that seminar would be right - instead, suggest they ADD to it by adding topics about finding horses in America, selecting young horses, appropriate vetting for young horses, understanding pedigrees, etc, so that they will feel more comfortable shopping for domestic bred youngsters.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  17. #17
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    Well, personally, I like the idea of an open letter to the USDF and USEF sent also to the horse press.

    Here, let me start it off ... we can add and subtract like one of the stories on Off Course:


    ------------------

    An Open Letter to the USDF, USEF and Horse Community:

    This letter was started as a response to the recent USDF Convention Report in Chronicle of the Horse, announcing that there was a lecture on "How to buy horses in Europe."

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  18. #18
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    Thanks for your support Poltroon, but all of your comments are things that I already said above that they should have done. I think it probably was thoughtless. I'm hoping to draw enough attention to it to have them consider making it generic. I'm all for continuing education - I think it's critical. I just wish that both of our national organizations would keep it generic. After all the long harangues on the other posts about Denny telling people here they didn't know what they were doing in breeding and how people should go to Europe to buy horses - all supported by Cheryl Frank, I'm simply amazed that USDF approved the lecture in that format.

    Tranquility Farm
    We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  19. #19
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    Jan. 30, 2003
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    well, here's my thoughts, some of which may go over like a lead balloon:

    When reading the replies and speaking of the EUROPEAN way, clearly we are referring to the German school. Not Cadre Noir instructors, or the French Russian school, for example. (These are quite different schools.) It's very nice for the German school to expand their school to all of Europe, it is just not very accurate.

    Young Riders should learn the history of different schools and learn what makes a good dresage horse. All the masters of dressage, not just the ones of the past 40 years. A tiny blink of an eye in the total history of dressage. In 1968 Olympics, it was the Fr-Russian school (Kizimov-Russian) gold, then Klimke (silver-German) then Neckerman (bronze-German).

    So yes, it becomes important for the young rider to watch and pick out the horse who can get the job done. My sawed off runt from the track routinely puts in better tests than the $40,000 -- $60,000 imported WBs, and he is doing I-1. Unfortunately, amoung teachers of the german school, he is no one's idea of a dressage horse. The other european schools were more apt to see his natural talent.

    I would really like to see the teachings on, "How to buy a dressage horse in Europe." I would like to evaluate it. Having said that, I agree with others who would like to take some action with USDF, etc. It is not very responsible to call yourself an educator of youth and come up with a course title like that.



  20. #20
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    Well, we can all comment here until we're blue in the face, but it's not going to make a fig's bit of difference unless we actually DO something.

    I hate to keep harping on it, but writing a letter is the most innocuous beginning we can make.

    What it DOES require is everyone putting their thoughts together and down on paper. And there are some amazingly erudite and articulate writers here on CoTH.

    It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. (T. Roosevelt)
    KT
    P.S. The more people I get to know, the more I love my horse.
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



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