The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 49
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2007
    Posts
    265

    Default Who pays for what? Coach takes lesson on horse.

    Would like your thoughts on this which came up at a friend's barn. My take on it was pretty different than her take.

    Coach works regularly with student and student's horse. Coach also has her own horse. Four to five times a year, coach's own coach comes to the area and coach rides her own horse in lessons with her coach.

    Coach approaches student. Student has been mostly happy with coach's work with student's horse, but student's horse has started refusing jumps with student and coach. Coach suggests she rides student's horse in a lesson with coach's coach, and student can watch, and maybe coach's coach can work through the refusal issue. Coach is going up anyway with her own horse to take a lesson. No discussion of costs.

    Coach trailers horse over an hour to where coach's coach gives lessons. Coach rides student's horse in lesson. Student watches. Lesson turns out to be all flatwork, is nice but does not work on refusal issue. Lesson does seem good in general. At the end of the lesson, coach's coach asks for money for the lesson. Coach looks at student and expects student to pay her coach. Student writes a check for the lesson (includes a big ship in fee from the person who owns the barn).

    At the end of the month, coach gives student a bill for coach's time riding the horse in the lesson (at the rate coach charges for schooling horse at a show) for shipping the horse to the lesson and for tacking up/grooming the horse for the lesson (student helped groom/tack up but coach did some too). Is that typical? For a student to pay for the coach to take a lesson with her own coach and for the student to pay to ship the horse, for the coach's riding time, and for grooming?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2008
    Posts
    10,627

    Default

    I would expect student to pay, since this was not for trainer's edification but to help student's horse.

    Then I would get a new trainer that could perhaps get a better plan for the horse. The current program is not working and it sounds like current coach is out of ideas for improving him.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2009
    Posts
    1,807

    Default

    Discussion of cost should have happened prior to the lesson. Also expectations of what coach's coach was going to address should have been discussed.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2007
    Posts
    265

    Default

    Cost should have been talked about first. For sure. But it was not. I am trying to figure out what is normal where costs are not discussed.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 18, 2007
    Posts
    410

    Default

    Methinks Coach smells a pigeon. Paying for the lesson - okay. Paying 1/2 hauling only - ok. Everything else bul***** and okay to not pay. First thing to check in a new refuser - hocks, back, saddle fit, etc. Then stop jumping and start hacking. Once Horse decides jumping isn't fun, game over. Agree that a different Coach is a good idea - or maybe a year doing fun things without a coach/trainer.

    The best lesson is to always discuss costs beforehand.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    39

    Default

    I would fire the coach before the ink was dry on the check to her coach.

    We would then speak about the additional charges. I would pay for the shipping of my horse as a gesture of good will. As she did not work on the discussed problem with my horse I would owe her nothing for her time.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 7, 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    698

    Default

    While it should have been discussed first, it's normal for the owner to pay for the lesson. But it's pushing it for the coach to charge for her time for a lesson she needed to figure out the problems with the horse, and especially for a grooming fee. And why wasn't the lesson working on the specific problems the horse was having? I second the thought that it's time to look for someone who can help you, unless the current coach can come up with a plan to address the issues with specific ideas and actions. Sounds like there's a lack of communication all around



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2009
    Posts
    1,807

    Default

    It's sort of a sticky situation now. However I would look at it this way- if say GM was giving a clinic and I didn't feel up to riding my horse in it but my trainer offered I would discuss with my trainer who should pay for what. My trainer is going to get benefit from going to a clinic with GM but I will learn a lot about my horse too. I would expect to pay for majority of fees but expect trainer to pitch something in because she is also getting something out of it.

    In this case I don't know if the lesson was completely focused on the horse or combination of horse and rider. In the end probably not much ther person can do but pay and think about changing coaches if this one is needing another person to evaluate horse. Going to get very expensive with the "double coaching." Maybe she should have taken the lesson instead?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 11, 2004
    Posts
    7,146

    Default

    No discussion up front...you're kinda' screwed....BUT, the coach should have brought it up...plus, if the lesson was supposedly to improve horse over fences and only some flat work was done...WTF?
    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 25, 2003
    Location
    Boston Area
    Posts
    9,394

    Default

    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by bizbachfan View Post
    Discussion of cost should have happened prior to the lesson. Also expectations of what coach's coach was going to address should have been discussed.
    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 8, 2001
    Location
    in the tiny cottage behind three maple trees
    Posts
    3,711

    Default

    Obviously all of this should have been addressed before the lesson.

    But the way I'm reading this is that student's horse has an issue that coach does not have adequate tools to address, and coach sought lesson with coach's coach to specifically address this issue. This wasn't something the student sought.

    So it sounded like it was presented to student as "I'm going to get help with this specific issue" and that didn't end up happening. So coach basically had a private lesson that didn't focus on the issue that student was told it would focus on, and now student is expected to cover the bill?

    I think had lesson addressed that specific issue, or maybe even if a better explanation had been provided as to how the flatwork in the lesson should translate to the stopping problem, student probably should have paid part/all of the lesson fee. But it didn't, and presumably student and student's horse aren't really that much better off (at least that is the impression I'm getting from the OP).
    Full-time bargain hunter.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Qc
    Posts
    4,450

    Default

    Fixing jumping problems usually starts with working on flatwork issues! Going to the jump, forward motion, straightness, suppleness, willingness, working thru the back, flexions, responsiveness to the aids (leg, seat, hands, weight...) This is all flatwork. Then, you can add a jump and see if what you worked on is appropriate. IMHO just jumping more and more can't cure such jumping issues. If your friend's horse wouldn't refuse before and now it became a problem, I would think that it is either because the horse has some physical issues or because they are asking too much for his capabilities (psy and mentally) or there is a rider issues that needs to be fixed by lots of correct flatwork and then come back to small jumps to build back the horse's confidence in its rider.

    As for who needs to pay what...
    I will say that since the coach needed help to fix your friend's horse, the coach should have paid for his/her clinic. Especially if your friend could have ride in the lesson but did not because the coach wanted to ride her/himself.(or did not even propose this option...)
    Your friend should pay if it was her idea to bring her horse down there and having the coach riding her horse so that she could watch and not do the hard work herself. (or for some reason, couldn't ride)
    Splitting trailer gas the same.
    Tacking up and grooming could be the same but since your friend did the job...I would have been pretty upset to receive a bill for what I should have been paid for...

    And who's paying what and how should have been discussed BEFORE!


    Tell her to pay said coach and try to find a real trainer!



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2009
    Posts
    1,807

    Default

    that is where the big disconnect in this whole thing is. If I am paying to trailer/lesson/etc. I am going to want to know what it is they are working on and how I (the owner) am going to be able to take that information and work on it with the horse too. Seems like the just left owner out of the loop even though it's noted the lesson went well, whatever that means... did they work through some flat issues the horse is having perhaps?



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2009
    Posts
    1,807

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Fixing jumping problems usually starts with working on flatwork issues! Going to the jump, forward motion, straightness, suppleness, willingness, working thru the back, flexions, responsiveness to the aids (leg, seat, hands, weight...) This is all flatwork. Then, you can add a jump and see if what you worked on is appropriate. IMHO just jumping more and more can't cure such jumping issues. If your friend's horse wouldn't refuse before and now it became a problem, I would think that it is either because the horse has some physical issues or because they are asking too much for his capabilities (psy and mentally) or there is a rider issues that needs to be fixed by lots of correct flatwork and then come back to small jumps to build back the horse's confidence in its rider.

    As for who needs to pay what...
    I will say that since the coach needed help to fix your friend's horse, the coach should have paid for his/her clinic. Especially if your friend could have ride in the lesson but did not because the coach wanted to ride her/himself.(or did not even propose this option...)
    Your friend should pay if it was her idea to bring her horse down there and having the coach riding her horse so that she could watch and not do the hard work herself. (or for some reason, couldn't ride)
    Splitting trailer gas the same.
    Tacking up and grooming could be the same but since your friend did the job...I would have been pretty upset to receive a bill for what I should have been paid for...

    And who's paying what and how should have been discussed BEFORE!


    Tell her to pay said coach and try to find a real trainer!
    This!



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    535

    Default

    We have a similar set up at my farm where I am the resident trainer, but I also have my own trainer that comes out quarterly to train me. My clients are always encouraged to ride with her; for them, we set it up as a clinic situation.

    When a client is having a problem with a horse (usually a green rider/green horse combo, and additionally one which I didn't not create ), I will absolutly encourage the rider to take the clinic. It is not so much b/c the two of us can't solve the problem over time, but rather that my trainer's extensive experience can get the horse on the road to recovery faster. It also helps to have a another perspective, different verbage, or even a second person saying the same issues are present to help a client better their riding.

    A few times it was decided by my trainer and myself that I should do the riding because I was more capable of addressing the issues. Point blank, the horse would benefit more from the clinic with an experienced rider. In those situations, my clients paid for the clinic but did not pay for my time in the saddle. My rationality was that although giving my time, I was still learning something whether it was a new approach, improving a exisiting skill, or just learning how that particular horse works.


    There is also the reverse: I knew a lady who let her trainer borrow her horse for lessons b/c the trainer's personal mount was injured. Not one time, but around 8-10 times. I guess if she had wanted to charge her trainer a day lease fee, I think she had every right since it was a lesson for the trainer, not for the horse. I would love to hear opinions on that situation.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2010
    Posts
    403

    Default

    Since when does being a coach give someone the right to take advantage of a situation. The cost should have been split between both of them. That would be fair.
    Charging to help groom and tack up a horse you will be riding in a lesson....ridiculous! What ever happened to the common courtesy of helping someone because you can?



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2009
    Posts
    3,237

    Default

    On rare occasions in the past I have paid for pros who work for me to take young horses to lesson/clinic with a BNT. In my scenarios, I made the arrangements with the BNT and discussed my goals/concerns with both the BNT and the pro ahead of time. And I paid for all costs. In each scenario I was prepared to pay the pro as well, but in every instance the pros refused to accept payment, citing their appreciation of the extra training they received as well.

    In the OP's situation, while I don't think that the trainer is completely out of line to expect the client to pay for all the costs, I think she is making a mistake to do so. I could see how it would leave a sour taste in a client's mouth, especially when trainer is having trouble solving the problem herself and the lesson with the BNT didn't address the issue. The trainer would probably do better business-wise to at a minimum NOT charge the client for her own time during the lesson.

    BTW, I never sent the horses/pros to work with a BNT because there was a problem the pro couldn't improve, it was always when horses were moving ahead and doing well and could benefit from more advanced work/ideas/input. If there was a basic problem (like stopping) a pro was having trouble improving, I'd be much more likely to take the horse out of that pro's program than to send them to a BNT.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 2005
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    535

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeHoney View Post
    In the OP's situation, while I don't think that the trainer is completely out of line to expect the client to pay for all the costs, I think she is making a mistake to do so. I could see how it would leave a sour taste in a client's mouth, especially when trainer is having trouble solving the problem herself and the lesson with the BNT didn't address the issue. The trainer would probably do better business-wise to at a minimum NOT charge the client for her own time during the lesson.

    Well said BeeHoney. Why so many trainer's bite their nose to spite their face, I will never understand.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2003
    Posts
    4,654

    Default

    While it is certainly best to make any financial arrangements up front, why is it that so many professionals in the horse business don't seem to do that.

    If you have a carpenter in to fix your house, or a lawyer do a will, fees are discussed before the work (however the fees don't always stay where quoted). Why do horse professionals so often seem to NOT discuss these additional fees before the work?

    i.e. Ms Student. I think we should bring your horse to my coach for a lesson to see if we can work out this issue. It will cost $X for the lesson plus my show grooming fee, trailering fee and my time.

    Then the student can decide if she wants to go there or not.

    I agree that if the coach doesn't bring it up you should, but why doesn't the coach bring it up?

    I also think the student's coach should have started her lesson introducing the horse and owner and with a discussion about this horse's new issue. If she didn't, the student should step in and do so. That way the NEW pro working on the project has a clue what they are working on, and not spending the time say improving the transitions when work on jump refusals or even 'lets take a look at saddle fit' would be more appropriate.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2004
    Location
    Ct
    Posts
    2,693

    Default

    Probably a bit of a different situation but my DD's trainer asked to ride our green horse in a two day clinic with Jeff Cook - we split the cost of the clinic, even though she asked to ride him. I trailered the horse in and groomed. I did not pay her for her riding time, nor any other fees.



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: Aug. 23, 2012, 11:18 AM
  2. Replies: 23
    Last Post: Jul. 28, 2012, 09:09 AM
  3. Spinoff: My trainer/coach cancelled lesson because...
    By firstimpressioncounts in forum Off Course
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: May. 21, 2009, 07:44 AM
  4. Horse Selling... Who pays?
    By upnoverfarm in forum Off Course
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: May. 17, 2009, 11:01 PM
  5. Old Rider takes lesson after 1 1/2 yrs AAAH
    By justalittlex in forum Off Course
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Oct. 9, 2008, 05:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •