The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27
  1. #1

    Default Anyone ever suggested a rule change to usea and/or usef?

    Yes, this is an alter as I don't want to offend anyone!

    Situation: Rider with fairly limited experience is winging it in eventing. Took 3-5 lessons in 2014, one so far in 2015. Has decided that horse and rider are ready for preliminary. No pony club experience, no prior experience eventing on any horse but the one currently showing. Owned horse since young, horse is now 10-12 and while successful at the lower levels, have not had great successes at Training. But usea/usef doesn't prevent move-ups that are unwise, they have required 4 trainings.

    First prelim they were almost last after dressage, one xc penalty (20) but jumped some of the prelim tables from a trot :0 SJ was a disaster, 4 down and the last few were swum through.

    3* rider has suggested horse is not really scopey for the level, let's lease it as the saintly lower level packer that it is and find rider a horse with more scope to lease and compete. Rider blew off the trainer at that point. Fellow eventers have nicely given comments for conditioning work, etc. They aren't followed, horse comes in well over time (good, not running and gunning) but finishes panting, long recovery.

    I am thinking of proposing to TPTB that maybe if you have not ridden to prelim and up before, it should be mandatory for a coach to sign your entry. Coach can't be the rider. I know the few trainers who have worked with this rider would NEVER sign the entry. We are all hoping they don't get hurt or hurt the horse.

    How to save the rider from themselves, when they are too young to see that just because they want to run a 1*, doesn't mean they are ready or the horse is even up to the task! Last sj 20 penalties and again swam through the fences. A 20 on xc as well.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2003
    Location
    Happily in Canada
    Posts
    5,185

    Default

    1. There are DR penalties that could have been applied - but weren't.

    2. I think a word from the GJ/TD at the events would be more effective than yet another rule.

    3. How would you propose this works? In specifics. What coach would want to "sign off" on entries even when the students are competent? Does that add a layer of liability on the coach? I know some coaches who don't want to be listed as "coach" or "trainer" (can't remember which is which) because it also puts them in a position of being the person responsible with regards to medications. They don't want that liability when their student, even a regular one, is a "trailer-in" type who does all their own care.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2015
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Trainer is responsible for drugs/medications so usually the rider signs this part. So a rider trailering in would still sign as the 'trainer', just not as coach. I was thinking more that it would only apply in a move up situation, not an always, and that if you were already proficient at that next level, (on prior horses), it would not be required.

    Unless the TD is present for the finish of XC (wasn't) or saw SJ (did not) with a 500 horse event, there is no way to prevent someone from dooming themselves or their horse. Both SJ and XC ran both days, really problematic for the TD to be present everywhere.

    Maybe it doesn't matter, in that the rider is an adult and is free to do what they like with their mount, but it is super stupid and crazy and dangerous to both horse and rider.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 22, 2001
    Posts
    5,369

    Default

    Not a fan of suggesting rules just to fix the one outlier. So you've got this person who seems like kind-of-an-idiot and who isn't listening to others. There are better ways to handle the situation (as B just suggested) than put in place a requirement that they have a coach sign their entry. Sounds like this person or someone similar would just find a coach of some sort - doesn't even have to be a USEA/USEF member - who would sign off for them and so it doesn't really solve the issue. Too easy to circumvent the rule; doesn't really educate the rider.

    In this instance, the rider may need to either (a) get a talking to from the ground jury or the judge; (b) pile up a string of non-qualifying, semi-scary runs before they get some sense; (c) teach their horse to stop, thus solving the problem inherently; or (d) get themselves into an accident bad enough to make things be an issue. I hate to say it, but sometimes folks are sufficiently clueless that (d) ends up being the only thing that persuades them...though even then sometimes they are far more quick to blame their accident on an external factor (jump/footing/judge/spectator/light/weather/bad hair day) then on their own or their horse's inadequacies. Unfortunately, you can't force folks to listen to the good advice they are getting from their own trainers or from others, no how hard we might wish that they would stop being a bonehead.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2008
    Location
    Nowhere, Maryland
    Posts
    4,053

    Default

    Yeah I don't see where a coach would solve this problem. Way too easy to get around that requirement.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2011
    Posts
    1,232

    Default

    This is silly.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    Pretty much horse heaven
    Posts
    2,898

    Default

    So what would y'all suggest the OP do? Would it be appropriate to give a heads-up to the GJ/TD at the next event that the rider may be over-faced and warrants being watched carefully for dangerous riding?
    Hindsight bad, foresight good.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2002
    Location
    Looking up
    Posts
    6,360

    Default

    The officials at the competition will watch a rider like this and communicate what they see among themselves. I have scribed for dressage judges, who knowing the test just presented to them might spell out disaster over fences, has called the TD at XC start and told them to watch this rider. The officials have numerous rules and guidelines to assist them in watching, possibly stopping, or modifying this rider's behavior -- and tools to enforce their decisions. Let the officials take care of it -- they know what to do and are trained to do it.

    I personally would not take it upon myself as a fellow competitor, or spectator, to walk up to an official and say something.

    I think personally, when you press "enter" button, you trust the competition will operate as a recognized event is supposed to. That includes officials taking action when presented with a spectacle as you are describing. If it is that bad they will take action.

    Karma has a way of evening everything out....
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    12,037

    Default

    I would say something to the TD at the next show. Especially if the rider is that dangerous, I'm more concerned about saving someone's life than pissing them off. Officials can't be everywhere and if they didn't attend the last show they might not be aware of what happened. In a situation like this close to me, TD was already well aware of the situation, had gotten several heads up from riders, trainers, and other TDs, and had already spoken to the rider in person.

    If the TD has enough warning to speak to the rider ahead of time they can say "hey, at the last show there were several people who were concerned about your safety, if I see ONE unsafe fence I will yank you."


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2002
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    1,522

    Default

    I think preventing an accident should be the biggest consideration. Is the dressage scary or reasonable? If it is reasonable the judge and TD may have no cause for alarm.
    Beth Davidson
    Black Dog Farm Connemaras & Sport Horses
    http://blackdogconnemara.com
    visit my blog: http://ponyeventer.blogspot.com



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 16, 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,456

    Default

    Literally anyone can sign as coach. And then what? The USEA/USEF holds the coach responsible if the rider has a bad go of it? I think your heart is in the right place, but...no.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 18, 2007
    Location
    Heaven on Earth--Sonoma County, CA
    Posts
    1,826

    Default

    Speak to a TD. I did it once, after viewing a show jumping round that made me terrified about the upcoming cross country round. In my case it was a moot point as the rider in question jumped the wrong second fence and was pulled up quickly. But the TD was very professional and appreciative and was watching, including the warm up (which was pretty terrifying).

    But, be concrete. Not the stuff about whether or not she takes enough lessons, or if she takes advice of others, but more "on this date in this phase I saw x, y, z" (too great of speed, had 5 rails as a result, and hung the right knee on cross country fences 5, 7, and 9, causing a stop at fence 10).
    Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
    Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
    www.phoenixsporthorses.com
    Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 19, 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    13,774

    Default

    You can not make a rule for idiots. Just keep talking to the person if you are their friend but may take a few people being blunt. Hopefully they learn before the horse or they get hurt.

    But this isn't the kind of thing that you make a rule trying to prohibit.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Feb. 10, 2015 at 09:43 AM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 23, 2002
    Location
    On the verge of a breakdown
    Posts
    2,869

    Default

    As an XC warm-up steward, I've told the XC field coordinator that I am concerned about an entry. He then lets the TD know and if he has had a chance to witness the terrifying himself, he will let the jump judges know to keep an eye out too. He will do the same thing if SJ tells him that someone is scary. If the scary starts in SJ, the TD is always somewhere near the start of XC to keep a close eye.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May. 6, 2007
    Location
    Napanee ON
    Posts
    5,026

    Default

    Give the show organizers and TD a heads up, I've done it before with success. I don't have an event coach so this rule would not be good for people like me.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2004
    Location
    Carolinas
    Posts
    5,315

    Default

    I am confused. Horse/rider combos must have the following qualifications before entering a "recognized" Preliminary HT:
    2.4 PRELIMINARY (P) - Open to competitors from the beginning of the calendar
    year of their 14th birthday, on horses five years of age or older. The competitor must have obtained an NQR at four Horse Trials at the Training Level or higher.

    So did this person enter a recognized event or a schooling show? Either way the secretary should not have accepted the entry without the required Qualification Rides.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2008
    Location
    Nowhere, Maryland
    Posts
    4,053

    Default

    OP said it had the required 4 trainings just no great success which honestly doesn't necessarily mean that much.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul. 2, 2003
    Location
    Northern VA
    Posts
    3,119

    Default

    On the actual subject on rule changes... how would one go about doing so?

    Curious as I'm interested in why the rules say jumpers (both nationally and internationally) can ride with kant-see-backs (aka fuzzy cheekpieces) or shadow rolls, but eventers are limited to shadow rolls.

    Um, asking for a friend...
    -my life-
    Translation
    fri [fri:] fritt fria (adj): Free
    skritt [skrit:] skritten (noun): Walk



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2008
    Location
    Nowhere, Maryland
    Posts
    4,053

    Default

    It's really not that hard-- contact the Eventing Liaison from USEF (it was Shealagh Costello when I did it, and she was really nice-- not sure if it still is). She will advise you on the process-- basically you just fill out a form and submit it to USEF and then a committee? subcommittee? votes on whether to bring it before the membership.

    I did one for nosenets for headshakers-- it didn't pass, which I am still bitter about.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun. 25, 2004
    Location
    Carolinas
    Posts
    5,315

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Highflyer View Post
    OP said it had the required 4 trainings just no great success which honestly doesn't necessarily mean that much.

    AH - missed that, read too quickly.

    To the OP - the Qualifying Requirements were put in place in an effort to slow and/or stop those who are not ready for Prelim.

    IMO - every human and/or horse will find their own ceiling or holes in their training as they move up the ranks. For some it happens at Training, for most it is Prelim.
    The problem with a 1 day event with that many entries is it is almost impossible to watch every ride. The PGJ is normally judging dressage while a separate judge is at SJ and the TD is focused mainly on XC while being available for issues at either dressage and/or SJ. Just ran through that a few weeks ago when I TD'd a 1 day.
    The officials have to work as a team with the volunteer staff. My question is did the dressage judge or the SJ judge either flag this rider/horse combo as someone to watch on course? From personal experience, some horses and riders don't handle SJ as well as XC. As a rule, jumping any XC fence from a forward trot is not scary. To make a decision, one has to know was the horse getting strong and the rider trotted to a nice fence or did the horse "crawl" over the fence? Keep in mind Jack LeGoff, the US Eventing Team coach from 1970'ish to 1984, made all of the team riders trot over 4' fences to remind their horses were full able to do so.

    In answer to your question - I do not see the need for yet another rule. At some point the competitor/parent/guardian/coach has to take the responsibility of their own actions.
    At some point the horse will let the rider know they don't want to play at this level.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    1 members found this post helpful.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 136
    Last Post: Sep. 3, 2011, 01:30 AM
  2. USEA/USEF rule on spurs
    By EventerOP in forum Eventing
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May. 8, 2011, 03:01 PM
  3. Proposed rule change....USEF
    By JRG in forum Dressage
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Feb. 23, 2010, 08:34 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: Feb. 9, 2010, 04:41 PM
  5. Replies: 15
    Last Post: Jan. 27, 2009, 06:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness