Please don't let someone do that to your horse. I've seen firsthand what a mess it can make of a horse and it is outragiously expensive as well. This guy hit our area a year or so ago and I don't think anyone around here still uses him for good reason. Please stick to tried and true farrier science.
Under a rock, up in the hills of Sage, So. Calif, southeast of Hemet & north east of Temecula
Don't like it
From what I've seen of it, not good and not new. It seems very similar in some regards to that fellow Tony Gonzales here in So. Calif. back in the 80's somewhere who was so hot for a while.
A good farrier has always looked at the entire horse, for crying outloud.
The Parellis do use this. However, not all Parelli folks use it and some are rather outspoken against it.
There is no such thing as "bad" horsemanship or "good" horsemanship. There is simply Horsemanship or the absence thereof.
Yeah....that's what I gathered after chatting with this particular farrier. I did let him trim my Mini, but I watched him like a hawk, and he has hooves of steel, and only gets trimmed every couple of months or so. What was funny to me was how fearful he seemed around the horses. When we went to do my Mini, the little guy reared up in the air, and he jumped back. He wasn't trying to act up, it's just one of his many tricks that he does. reached down grabbed his hoof, and didn't let go until he stood calmly, and he was fine.
Anyway, the issue I have isn't with my Mini, it's the fact that he trims several of my students' horses. I have to tread lightly because I am good friends with the BO, and he does her horses as well. Can someone point me to any articles or something in writing - besides this thread - that talks about the negatives about that type of trimming?
My understanding of the system and what I saw was that they shim up the hooves to correct problems that are perceived in the horse's upper body based on stance, symmetry, and other things like how the mane falls and tail hangs. I saw this farrier basically take the bony column intentionally out of correct alignment on a number of horses to "fix" the problems up higher. He'd shim one side of the shoe/hoof up and unbalance the hoof...a major problem IMO. When you do that you set the horse up for all sorts of issues to develop so you create one problem to fix another??? makes no sense to me at all. It would be like you wearing a shoe on crooked forcing your foot to tilt to the inside or outside or one heel high and one low and then running with a backpack on because your posture needed correcting.
I can't point to specific articles to specifically address what he is doing but pick up any farrier manual on proper trimming and shoeing and you will find that it is always correct to properly align and balance the bony column and hoof. Certainly there are times to do therapeutic work like wedges and shims (usually working with a vet) but the goal is to always balance the bony column to protect the horse's soundness. If horses have been helped with this system, it was by accident!
Can someone point me to any articles or something in writing - besides this thread - that talks about the negatives about that type of trimming?
well, that's going to be difficult because there is nothing scientific behind this method.
The best you can do is understand how feet work, how the body works, how each affect the other, and why doing what they do is not correct. There ARE times when you monkey with the feet in a way you wouldn't do on a normal horse, if there are hoof-body issues that have to be worked together.
But this program, as DDB alluded to, does not seem to get, *at all*, the hoof-body connection, and they appear to have made up some relationship so they can claim their "magic" works.
______________________________ The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET
Jim Crews (sp?) is a competent farrier when he wants to be. He is, however, afraid of horses. He helped me rehab the QH's feet after Doc butchered them badly. But...in my absence he snugged my wholly placid old horse up in the cross ties so tightly the horse panicked and ripped loose. After that he would not even consider touching him w/o doping him. In all the years and all the farriers, he's the only one I've encountered who is that intimidated and afraid. I let him go, as he wouldn't even agree to get under the horse if I held him. Nope, gotta use drugs. Nope, not going to do that. No other farrier in almost ten years nd...hmmm, let's see that's EIGHT farriers total...and NONE of those guys ever once had an issue with that horse.
If Mr Jim has snugged up to your BO or BM, so what...is the problem that you can't bring your own farrier in? If you can't....welll...At the very least I'd flat tell him I hear from some friends near Calera Alabama that you aren't half bad as a farrier. Knock off this Parelli nonsense and just shoe the horse in front of you, no gimmicks, no crap. He'll likely appreciate your direct approach...and wonder who you've been talking to
Look, he's found a way to jump on Pat's wagon. Good for him. There's ample plently bad farriers and good farriers, his brand of bad just happens to have a label.
Last edited by katarine; Oct. 21, 2010 at 10:45 AM.
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. (Steven Wright)
katarine - if I owned anything besides a Mini that only needs trimming every few months or so, I would for sure use another farrier, but for now this farrier is OK with him.
It's the other horses in the barn - not owned by myself - that I worry about. One horse is 18 years old - I have known him since he was 4 - he has done all sorts of stuff with....castings, barefoot, shoes back on....now he has him in Aluminum wedge egg bar shoes. Now, I've seen those shoes help certian horses, but on an 18 year old who was going pretty good for 18 years?......not so much.
My most pressing issue though is that one my clients has a horse who has suddenly came up lame, and is sore in the Navicular area. The horse just turned 3, and I have never seen him take a lame step, until now, when "Mr. Endorsed Farrier" starts trimming him. The problem is that I'm not sure that the owner sees the lameness - I hate having a good eye for unsoundness - AND she is a Parrilli Groupie. sigh.
I should clarify though, the farrier that I am referring to is NOT one of the main guys on that website - though I guess he was "trained" by him? He just has that website on his business card, and says that he is an "endorsed farrier" - by them, I guess??
The safest thing you can do is offer thought provoking questions to the 3YO's owner. as in, Zipper's never been lame a day that I can recall. Now he's come up sore, and that soreness sure does seem to coincide with when JollyJimBob started trimming him. Do you think perhaps there's something to that? Or am I missing something? What do you think?
Then shut up and listen. If you can help her explore the idea that maybe Jolly and Zipper aren't a good team, and let it be her idea to get a second opinion, or go back to GruffyHuffyFarrier, great.
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. (Steven Wright)
Well, I just got off the phone with the owner of the 3 year old. She said her horse was still NQR, but that another "trainer" had saw her yesterday and told her it wasn't that bad and to go ahead and "ride him out of it" Thankfully she walked him around a few times and decided to get off.
I advised her to call the vet to give him a heads up, and get his opinion on things - and which farrier he recommends.
Where am I and what am I doing in this handbasket?
At the end of the ride I decided to try doing simple circling with her. In the past, she was resistant (which I took to be because of her being a dominant mare) and we never did circles very well. And figure 8s were out of the question. Well, I asked her to do circles in both directions and she did them perfectly and was light as a feather. Then I asked her to do figure 8s and this she did perfectly and lightly. The last time I asked her to do a circle or figure 8s was about a year ago (no kidding) and the last time I rode her was about 6 weeks ago. So for me to get on her and have her do this now with such ease is incredibly wonderful and the only thing that changed was the way her trim is done.
(taken from the healthy stride website)
Can I just say that aside from this being wrong on sooo many levels, if this is what you want as an endorsement for your particular product, you are marketing yourself to an entirely different set of horse people than the ones who make a practice of riding their horses (butweknewthat) ...
Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.
ooo, pepperoni approved trimmers. Be still my heart. My farrier just left. He did the parellified horses next door, then came over here so he and his apprentice could trim my two. I chatted and entertained the boys by making disparaging comments about how obviously my horses need parelli. The journeyman sicced his apprentice on Sadie (haltered, munching hay, no one holding her lead rope in the open barn with no barriers whatsoever between her and the wild world.) Journeyman farrier tackled Hawk (naked, no halter, no lead rope, loose in the corral). Both horses good as gold.
When done my farrier blew in Hawks nose and told him that was for being disrespectful of his space and nuzzling him throughout the trim. Then he remarked to the apprentice that my horses werent flexible enough (you can practically loop their back legs up over their ears) and after a few more insults concerning what a difficult customer I was and how they'd bring tranqs next time they were gone. I can only hope that a p-approved farrier could get me to part from my hard earned cash so easily.
BTW, been riding these two for 3 and 4 years respectively with el cheapo 30 buck pasture trims that take five minutes every six weeks or seven if the farrier gets bogged down and cant make his regular appt. Their feet seem to be holding up despite this abuse.
Last night I trimmed both Sweets and Monster free out in the pasture with a flake of hay under their nose. The most either of them did was Sweets stuck her muzzle inside my sweatshirt pocket to fish out the alfalfa cubes. I always trim the yearling filly free in the pasture. Honestly I had to go and buy a halter that fits her because baby halter quit fitting weeks ago. I almost never put a halter on her - just grab a hunk of mane hair and point her in the direction I need her to go. It occurred to me that if some emergency should arise, I don't even have a halter that fits the filly. I always trimmed the stallion free in his pasture, would only put on a halter and tie him up if I was doing shoes that time around.
Keep it simple. No need for scientific, expensive shimming to correct microimbalances in the hair folicles - for the low low price of $489. Good grief.