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  1. #1
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    Default Zone Divisions to Become National Divisions

    According to USHJA's proposal all the zone divisions will now have standard specs. ( Childrens Hunter won't be 2'9" in one zone and not to exceed 3'3" in another).

    No more zone input on divisions to offer as they will all be National Divisions the same as Junior Hunter, A/O Hunter for example.

    Any thoughts?



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    According to USHJA's proposal all the zone divisions will now have standard specs. ( Childrens Hunter won't be 2'9" in one zone and not to exceed 3'3" in another).

    No more zone input on divisions to offer as they will all be National Divisions the same as Junior Hunter, A/O Hunter for example.

    Any thoughts?
    I had thought (maybe misread the email - totally possible) that it was still just a proposal??

    Regardless, I am more concerned about all the language in the survey regarding cross entry from the AA and children's into the regular divisions. If they allow cross entry, it will kill those divisions for the peeps that can't afford to swim in the A/O, Jr Hunter, Pony Hunter pool as, IMO, AA and childrens would just become additional schooling divisions.....



  3. #3
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    I think National Standards for zones is a good thing. My daughter does jumpers and you can say she does Children's Jumpers and Modified Junior Amateur but that doesn't mean the same in Zone 10 as another zone or sometimes not even in the same zone. Mods are unrated and here in NorCal they have to be set at 1.20 to count for Norcal points where in Thermal 1.20 is low juniors which is a rated division and counts for National points. And Childrens jumpers here are always 1.10 but I see that they are lower (1.00/1.05 or 1.15 like at Thermal) or higher at shows outside this zone. Really if you are getting national points then Children's should be one height for A shows across the boards, low juniors should be one height, etc.
    Last edited by LeeB10; Oct. 14, 2010 at 10:16 AM. Reason: added



  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    I had thought (maybe misread the email - totally possible) that it was still just a proposal??

    Regardless, I am more concerned about all the language in the survey regarding cross entry from the AA and children's into the regular divisions. If they allow cross entry, it will kill those divisions for the peeps that can't afford to swim in the A/O, Jr Hunter, Pony Hunter pool as, IMO, AA and childrens would just become additional schooling divisions.....
    I can think of a reason that you would have a horse in the A/O jumpers and another in Childrens - one doesn't jump as high as the other. We are in that position right now so my daughter has had to show Modified junior am jumpers because her other horse is best suited to 1.10 - 1.15 in height and she did not want to sell her. So you either sell the horse that doesn't jump as high, only ride it at home, or? I think the same can be said about the hunters. Not every horse can do every division.

    I also think you should be allowed to lease an A/O horse - that the language should be changed to allow that. Sometimes there are reasons that you might not want to buy a horse - like your daughter is 18 and leaving for college in a year. Leasing is better than buying in that instance.
    Last edited by LeeB10; Oct. 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM. Reason: added



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeB10 View Post
    I can think of a reason that you would have a horse in the A/O jumpers and another in Childrens - one doesn't jump as high as the other. We are in that position right now so my daughter has had to show Modified junior am jumpers because her other horse is best suited to 1.10 - 1.15 in height and she did not want to sell her. So you either sell the horse that doesn't jump as high, only ride it at home, or? I think the same can be said about the hunters. Not every horse can do every division.

    I also think you should be allowed to lease an A/O horse - that the language should be changed to allow that. Sometimes there are reasons that you might not want to buy a horse - like your daughter is 18 and leaving for college in a year. Leasing is better than buying in that instance.
    I believe that they are changing the rule regarding leasing in the A/O's.

    My opinion is that particularly the children's divisions are meant to be a starting point for those riders/horses with less experience and/or finances to afford a horse that would be competitive in the regular divisions. If you allow cross entry at the same competitions, you would kill those divisions, as then all the more experienced riders on their A division mounts would be using the childrens to school for the rated, rather than having it as a stand alone division for those riders/horses that are children's specialists to shine.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    I believe that they are changing the rule regarding leasing in the A/O's.

    My opinion is that particularly the children's divisions are meant to be a starting point for those riders/horses with less experience and/or finances to afford a horse that would be competitive in the regular divisions. If you allow cross entry at the same competitions, you would kill those divisions, as then all the more experienced riders on their A division mounts would be using the childrens to school for the rated, rather than having it as a stand alone division for those riders/horses that are children's specialists to shine.
    Maybe they could have language that says you cannot take the same horse in the Childrens/Juniors division but you can have the same rider and different horse in those division at one show.



  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    I believe that they are changing the rule regarding leasing in the A/O's.

    My opinion is that particularly the children's divisions are meant to be a starting point for those riders/horses with less experience and/or finances to afford a horse that would be competitive in the regular divisions. If you allow cross entry at the same competitions, you would kill those divisions, as then all the more experienced riders on their A division mounts would be using the childrens to school for the rated, rather than having it as a stand alone division for those riders/horses that are children's specialists to shine.
    Exactly my thought PM, especially in Zone 2. The Children's is very competitive and a very large division. If the regular ponies are allowed to cross enter or Jr Hunters it will be discouraging to the kids who can't afford or don't want to compete in the regular division.

    I do agree with A/O's being allowed to lease. Many younger A/O's can afford a lease vs a purchase to compete. Plus as pointed out that many of the kids that are seniors in High School that have aged out and are going to college are not going to buy a horse and are forced to show in something else or elsewhere.

    I don't think they can make this as a blanket rule. Hunters and Jumpers are like apples and oranges. As Children's is different from A/O's. I hope they really listen to us and don't make a general rule.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeB10 View Post
    I can think of a reason that you would have a horse in the A/O jumpers and another in Childrens - one doesn't jump as high as the other. We are in that position right now so my daughter has had to show Modified junior am jumpers because her other horse is best suited to 1.10 - 1.15 in height and she did not want to sell her. So you either sell the horse that doesn't jump as high, only ride it at home, or? I think the same can be said about the hunters. Not every horse can do every division.

    I also think you should be allowed to lease an A/O horse - that the language should be changed to allow that. Sometimes there are reasons that you might not want to buy a horse - like your daughter is 18 and leaving for college in a year. Leasing is better than buying in that instance.
    There are jumper divisions at every show at just about every height. At many shows the height starts at about .9m.

    You say you don't want to compete against the pro's? Well, there are very few pros showing at .9m - 1.0m. And, if there are, well, look at it from a childrens jumper rider's perspective: She doesn't want to compete against an A/O jumper rider.

    The A/O jumper rider can either leave one horse at home and show the other, or she can show one horse in the childrens or A/O division while showing the other in the open division for the height that best suits that horse.

    IMO, this is a very viable alternative. It is much more fair than letting one segment of the exhibitors having their cake and eating it, too, while the people who own/ride a horse who max out at the childrens or AA height (or the riders themselves max out at that height) are disadvantaged by better riders dropping down.

    No one can have everything they want in this world.
    I have talked Maggie into running for President. She will be running on the Curly Haired Dog ticket. Her campaign slogan is "Don't be douchy or I'll pee on your carpet".



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    There are jumper divisions at every show at just about every height. At many shows the height starts at about .9m.

    You say you don't want to compete against the pro's? Well, there are very few pros showing at .9m - 1.0m. And, if there are, well, look at it from a childrens jumper rider's perspective: She doesn't want to compete against an A/O jumper rider.

    The A/O jumper rider can either leave one horse at home and show the other, or she can show one horse in the childrens or A/O division while showing the other in the open division for the height that best suits that horse.

    IMO, this is a very viable alternative. It is much more fair than letting one segment of the exhibitors having their cake and eating it, too, while the people who own/ride a horse who max out at the childrens or AA height (or the riders themselves max out at that height) are disadvantaged by better riders dropping down.

    No one can have everything they want in this world.
    If a rider qualifies as a "child" then they should be able to do children's without a cross entry restriction. Or separate ages for children and juniors should apply - a younger cutoff or something so noone is disadvantaged.




    ****and.. as an aside. My daughter competes against pros all the time and holds her own even though she is a child. She doesn't complain when she has to compete against the pros that they might be better or have an advantage. You get better by competing against better people.
    Last edited by LeeB10; Oct. 14, 2010 at 11:35 AM. Reason: added



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeB10 View Post
    If a rider qualifies as a "child" then they should be able to do children's without a cross entry restriction. Or separate ages for children and juniors should apply - a younger cutoff or something so noone is disadvantaged.




    ****and.. as an aside. My daughter competes against pros all the time and holds her own even though she is a child. She doesn't complain when she has to compete against the pros that they might be better or have an advantage. You get better by competing against better people.
    That's fabulous that your child does so well against the pros, but I completely disagree that the ages for children vs juniors should be changed.

    The children's divisions, as it stands now, is meant to be a division to showcase the younger, less experienced rider or the rider or horse that is maxed out at that height. It has not been, in the past at least, a division for the Jr jumper rider or junior hunter rider to compete at an unfair advantage over the children's rider or to use that division as a warm up for the regular divisions.

    The rule against cross entry allows for a different type of rider/horse to have a division where they can show against like at that show. Where is the fun and sportsmanship in having an experienced pony jock on an AA quality pony hunter (just for example) competing against My Little Pony? BTW, there is no lack of competition in the children's divisions at most shows, in fact, they are frequently the largest at any show.....



  11. #11
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    ^I feel like the chances of a horse/pony that's showing in the AA divisions using the C divisions as a warm up (at the same show) is unlikely. For the most part, they go on the same days, so that would be a lot of classes in one weekend. I think most people would continue doing what they do now; using an equitation class as a warm up, rather than entering a whole other division.

    Personally, I'm hoping the -owner part is removed from the A/O jumpers... it's never seemed fair to me that the high junior/AOs are usually combined and the ammies are limited to 1 horse that they own whereas the juniors can ride as many as they can get the ride on. It makes an uneven balance.



  12. #12
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    Default But What about...

    I have a Jr Jumper rider on a Jr Jumper horse.I also have same rider bringing along my future AA horse who is 5...she cannot show him in the pre-greens during the school year because they go early in the week, but she could do him in the children's hunters on the weekends.Are you saying that because she does the Jr.Jumpers she would not be allowed to bring along a green one in the children's? That is ridiculous!And if he shows the talent he willl move to the Jr. Hunters but not at the same show...I understand the controversy, but if we don't allow our Jr riders opportunity to grow as riders, such as bringing along a green horse and showing it in what is available to them to show in, then we are killing the sport!Competition is good and we should all be aspiring to be the best we can be at whatever height.But I do think a National standard is needed for heights...and not only that but it needs to be strictly followed!!! Alot of shows say it is a 3' class with maybe 2 jumps at that height and the rest 2'9... and that goes all the way up thru the higher level jumpers...if we want to develop talent in this country than we need to do it thru stricter course heights and course design, and training!!Perhaps for the children's division which is already split by rider age in my are they could split it by horses age as well, for thos older horses stepping down from the 3'6 or those eventually moving up to the 3'6...



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeB10 View Post
    I also think you should be allowed to lease an A/O horse - that the language should be changed to allow that. Sometimes there are reasons that you might not want to buy a horse - like your daughter is 18 and leaving for college in a year. Leasing is better than buying in that instance.
    I agree that the cross entry restriction is absurd. It was fine when the children's were always 3'6" and the Jr/AOs were always 4'6". But with height discrepencies it's absolutely ridiculous to not be allowed to ride one horse in the Low AOs (3'11") and one horse in the AAs (3'7" or even sometimes 3'9")......what's that restricting??? I'm an amateur through and through, so I've always been confused about why I can't ride in a 3'7" class on my greener horse and a 3'11" class on my other horse. I do, however, understand restricting same horse/same rider. And I would also understand if the language read such that you couldn't cross enter with a certain height difference between amateur classes (i.e. you couldn't cross enter between the AO highs and the AAs).

    But I have to admit that I am happy with the no-leasing stipulation in the AOs, and I'm sad to hear that it's on the way out. For starters, it doesn't affect juniors, so if your daughter wants to lease a Jr horse, great. But in my years I've watched a lot of kids move up to become "non-official assistant trainers" in the 18/19 year old time frame well before they declare "pro." I'm perfectly happy not having those kids (and there are always several at the big barns year after year) who can "lease" the big horses from the trainers to jump around the AOs. I, for one, very much like knowing that my fellow AO competitors are fellow amateurs who actually own their own horses (therefore have a real investment in the horse whether it's time/effort or money) and not a bunch of kids on lease horses "for the year" only. There are plenty of open classes for those kids to do.....1.40m jumpers, Open Jumpers/1.45m jumpers, Grand Prixes, Mini Prixes, etc.

    With that being said, I'm happy because it suits my specific situation (an Amateur Owner who owns my own horses). When it comes right down to it, I'm not adverse to competing against others, even when those others bring out a wee bit of jealousy on my part (a teenager leasing a mucho expensive GP horse that could trot around the classes, for example). So I'm certainly not "against" eliminating the lease stipulation, just a little sad that it opens up my class that I work hard to "qualify" for to a lot more people.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equsrider View Post
    I have a Jr Jumper rider on a Jr Jumper horse.I also have same rider bringing along my future AA horse who is 5...she cannot show him in the pre-greens during the school year because they go early in the week, but she could do him in the children's hunters on the weekends.Are you saying that because she does the Jr.Jumpers she would not be allowed to bring along a green one in the children's? That is ridiculous!And if he shows the talent he willl move to the Jr. Hunters but not at the same show...I understand the controversy, but if we don't allow our Jr riders opportunity to grow as riders, such as bringing along a green horse and showing it in what is available to them to show in, then we are killing the sport!Competition is good and we should all be aspiring to be the best we can be at whatever height.But I do think a National standard is needed for heights...and not only that but it needs to be strictly followed!!! Alot of shows say it is a 3' class with maybe 2 jumps at that height and the rest 2'9... and that goes all the way up thru the higher level jumpers...if we want to develop talent in this country than we need to do it thru stricter course heights and course design, and training!!Perhaps for the children's division which is already split by rider age in my are they could split it by horses age as well, for thos older horses stepping down from the 3'6 or those eventually moving up to the 3'6...
    Currently, there is no restriction on moving between junior jumpers and children's hunters at the same show, in most zones, though I think Zone 2 has some restrictions on children's jumpers and the pony divisions? not positive.

    It is more the childrens/junior hunter, children's/pony hunter and children's/junior jumper cross entries that I find problematic. Divisions where you could conceivably show the same horse/rider combination in both divisions.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by supershorty628 View Post
    ^I feel like the chances of a horse/pony that's showing in the AA divisions using the C divisions as a warm up (at the same show) is unlikely. For the most part, they go on the same days, so that would be a lot of classes in one weekend. I think most people would continue doing what they do now; using an equitation class as a warm up, rather than entering a whole other division.

    Personally, I'm hoping the -owner part is removed from the A/O jumpers... it's never seemed fair to me that the high junior/AOs are usually combined and the ammies are limited to 1 horse that they own whereas the juniors can ride as many as they can get the ride on. It makes an uneven balance.
    I can certainly see people using an entire division as a warm up, especially if it for national points - they would just do the children's hunters instead of the age group equitations and I can certainly see shows changing the schedule to accomodate such.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    It is more the childrens/junior hunter, children's/pony hunter and children's/junior jumper cross entries that I find problematic. Divisions where you could conceivably show the same horse/rider combination in both divisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    I can certainly see people using an entire division as a warm up, especially if it for national points - they would just do the children's hunters instead of the age group equitations and I can certainly see shows changing the schedule to accomodate such.
    I agree.

    I think there are plenty of people who would send the same horse and rider combination into two divisions, such as children's/juniors or pony/children's pony, whether as a warm up, or as a chance to get more points on an animal's resume.

    The result would be the legitimate lower division entries getting trounced (and probably discouraged) by the overqualified entries in the division.

    I think it's different to have the same rider do the lower division on a different animal who might be younger or greener. That doesn't bother me as much, though it's still hard for the younger kids to be competitive against a much more experienced rider, regardless of the mount.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWjumper View Post
    I agree that the cross entry restriction is absurd. It was fine when the children's were always 3'6" and the Jr/AOs were always 4'6". But with height discrepencies it's absolutely ridiculous to not be allowed to ride one horse in the Low AOs (3'11") and one horse in the AAs (3'7" or even sometimes 3'9")......what's that restricting??? I'm an amateur through and through, so I've always been confused about why I can't ride in a 3'7" class on my greener horse and a 3'11" class on my other horse. I do, however, understand restricting same horse/same rider. And I would also understand if the language read such that you couldn't cross enter with a certain height difference between amateur classes (i.e. you couldn't cross enter between the AO highs and the AAs).

    But I have to admit that I am happy with the no-leasing stipulation in the AOs, and I'm sad to hear that it's on the way out. For starters, it doesn't affect juniors, so if your daughter wants to lease a Jr horse, great. But in my years I've watched a lot of kids move up to become "non-official assistant trainers" in the 18/19 year old time frame well before they declare "pro." I'm perfectly happy not having those kids (and there are always several at the big barns year after year) who can "lease" the big horses from the trainers to jump around the AOs. I, for one, very much like knowing that my fellow AO competitors are fellow amateurs who actually own their own horses (therefore have a real investment in the horse whether it's time/effort or money) and not a bunch of kids on lease horses "for the year" only. There are plenty of open classes for those kids to do.....1.40m jumpers, Open Jumpers/1.45m jumpers, Grand Prixes, Mini Prixes, etc.

    With that being said, I'm happy because it suits my specific situation (an Amateur Owner who owns my own horses). When it comes right down to it, I'm not adverse to competing against others, even when those others bring out a wee bit of jealousy on my part (a teenager leasing a mucho expensive GP horse that could trot around the classes, for example). So I'm certainly not "against" eliminating the lease stipulation, just a little sad that it opens up my class that I work hard to "qualify" for to a lot more people.


    Here the Mojams (modified junior/am jumpers) are 1.20.. the same height as low Juniors in other zones so my daughter can take her two horses and do Childrens and Mojams but couldn't do Childrens and Low Juniors. The Cross entry rules are crazy.



  18. #18
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    Having different divisions at different levels to offer more opportunities to show is great BUT if you allow a lot of cross entry at the same shows you create too many opportunities for people to abuse the system. As it is already, there is a MAJOR problem of over doing it- too many classes and too many horse shows in one season. We need to be creating rules that encourage good horse ownership and hopefully place more value on quality rather than quantity.

    I don't have a problem with using national standards for these divisions but I'm not so sure we need to nationally recognize childrens hunters and ponies. I think there will be a huge increase in point chasing in childrens which is pretty ridiculous for a 3' hunter division (or the 2'6" pony division).

    Of the divisions mentioned in the proposal, I would only support childrens jumper for national recognition. Although it is still considered an "entry level" jumper division, at least the jumps are fairly substantial.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    Currently, there is no restriction on moving between junior jumpers and children's hunters at the same show, in most zones, though I think Zone 2 has some restrictions on children's jumpers and the pony divisions? not positive.

    .
    I think there ARE quite a few restrictions at present.

    Zone 1 childrens Hunter rider can not show in classes where the fence heights exceed 3'6"

    Zone 2 Rider may not cross enter into any other class at the same competition where the
    fences exceed 3' except Children's Jumper, and Equitation Classes where the fences do not exceed 3'6".

    Zone 3
    A rider in the Children's Hunter
    Division is not eligible to compete in classes where fences exceed 3'3", except age group Equitation, Medal classes, Children's/Adult Jumper and Pony Jumper Classes.

    I only looked at the first three zones and they all have language that prevents a Childrens Hunters Rider from doing Junior Jumpers based on the jump height.

    You mentioned you think the A/O rule is changing. It just changed this year to make Jumpers and Hunters in sync.

    Can you please point me to the proposal for the A/O change?



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
    I think there ARE quite a few restrictions at present.

    Zone 1 childrens Hunter rider can not show in classes where the fence heights exceed 3'6"

    Zone 2 Rider may not cross enter into any other class at the same competition where the
    fences exceed 3' except Children's Jumper, and Equitation Classes where the fences do not exceed 3'6".

    Zone 3
    A rider in the Children's Hunter
    Division is not eligible to compete in classes where fences exceed 3'3", except age group Equitation, Medal classes, Children's/Adult Jumper and Pony Jumper Classes.

    I only looked at the first three zones and they all have language that prevents a Childrens Hunters Rider from doing Junior Jumpers based on the jump height.

    You mentioned you think the A/O rule is changing. It just changed this year to make Jumpers and Hunters in sync.

    Can you please point me to the proposal for the A/O change?
    I stand corrected - LOL! Though I'm pretty sure that I've seen some prize lists where junior jumper is excluded from the cross entry restriction - maybe WEF?? Though I could be wrong about that, too!! I'll have to go check



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