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  1. #1
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    Default TB pedigree info please? Viney

    Some info please on this mating for eventing

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10615749

    Thanks



  2. #2
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    Quick Answer: I'd do it.

    All of the horses in the pedigree are the very best lines that have produced in sport as well as the track. There are some very rare lines far back as well that do make the match up extremely interesting.

    Damister has Petee Wrack in his damline, and Petee Wrack was the sire of multiple winners of the US Maryland Hunt Cup or Grand National or one of our timber races that is hugely long--4 miles +. So you get stamina out the wazoo with him.

    On top, Picture Palace has a line to Sea Sick, a French horse by Elf who was the sire of Bonne Cause--best TB show jumping line in US history, except for maybe Ksar with whom she shares the Dollar sire line, or Winter Rose. Sea Sick was the damsire of Battleship, the winner of the UK Grand National and multiple steeplechases (not hurdles) in the US. More serious stamina. Sea Sick comes from the Dollar line of French Herod horses who are present more recently in the pedigree through the Tourbillon line , and as a rule, these horses are extremely good jumpers.

    Then you have the Hyperion son Hornbeam, and he's well proved in Irish and UK sport horses. He's one that makes my eyes twinkle. He is the damsire of Blakeney, sire of Julio Mariner (serious KWPN show jumping TB sire). Blakeney is out of Windmill Girl, so he's a half to Morston.

    Add to that all of the Princely Gift (wonderful lines for jumping), and the double to Welsh Pageant, and the double to Court Martial, along with the sire line to Derring Do (one of the great chasing and sport lines) and you would have a foal who has the lines to excel as an event horse. You'd most likely get the jump and the stamina. Heck, with the Court Martial, the Blandford, the Derring Do and the double to Welsh Pageant, sire of Lauries crusador, you might get the dressage as well.

    Only thing that seems to be lacking is Wild Risk.

    But that's okay because I really like this cross.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  3. #3
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    Default

    Thank you, that is just the info I wanted, thankfully you said it should work as said foal is due in April!! Very excited now and praying for a colt to run on (fingers tightly crossed).

    Was thinking of putting her to Luso next year as he is stunning and I think conformation wise would suit her even better, what do you think of this cross

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10615749

    So next year do I go with the original (Primo Pageant) again or would the above be as good?

    Also what do you think of this mare for Sport horse breeding, she has raced and been shown

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=shes+my+valentine

    Thank you this is really appreciated



  4. #4
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    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of either Northern Dancer or Mr. P for sport. There are some from each who are good, but I'd never deliberately breed a Mr. P/Northern Dancer cross for eventing. It's that crossing that has damaged American TBs so much. The get have a tendency to be precocious and fragile and very fast. Leave that to the racing people who will probably also damage the European TB in their quest for speed. For eventing, I'd stay far away from it. This is just my opinion.

    Northern Dancer hasn't proved himself yet with event horses to me, although Mr. P has got some nice descendants in the sport.

    I don't care how far back they are; that cross makes my skin crawl. We try as much as possible to avoid it over here for sport. Might be irrational, given the other horses in the pedigree, but I just wouldn't do it deliberately. If the horse were already on the ground, that's a very different proposition. This is not purely theoretical, as I have an ND/Mr. P cross. She inherited the worst from both lines--huge body on spindly legs that are too straight in the rear. I didn't breed her; I bought her as a weanling because she has an event horse mind. She has ND 3 back on top and Mr. P three back on the bottom.

    Let others see if ND can cross over into eventing on European mares. I'd keep looking. But that's just my opinion.

    For a broodmare, I'd worry about the ND curse-body is too heavy for the legs. Also, FWIW, my vet who breeds racehorses tell me that the Deputy Minister line from ND has a reputation for producing hock problems. But that might be just that one line.

    Added info about my ND/Mr. P cross.
    I also bought a weanling colt at the same sale by the same ND sire, but from a completely different dam line. I mean "completely". I actually bought him because I liked his dam line. I also met both dams and the sire. The mare has ended up much like her mother, but worse. She has a slightly better neck, but that's all. She's smaller than her dam and sire. The mother's body and legs were better in proportion. Her bone was better. Her angles weren't as bad. My girl has awful feet--low heeled, thin soled and very flat. Not sure where that came from, but the gelding doesn't have those feet, so they probably didn't come from the sire line.

    The gelding is totally different in temperament, body style, and size. He's a lovely little thing to my eye. His mother was small--barely 15.2 because they sticked her in my presence, and the sire was a touch over 16h. There was much less of a disconnect between his dam and sire conformationally, but I'd never think of him as an eventer because of his personality. He just doesn't have the brain for it. He's brave and sweet, but not at all a problem solver, and he is just plain accident prone. He's also smaller than his sire, but a touch bigger than his dam--I think, but haven't sticked him.

    Straight legs behind give an advantage in racing, so it is a flaw that is being found more and more in North American racing TB stock.

    JMO
    Last edited by vineyridge; Oct. 13, 2010 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Added information
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  5. #5
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    Is that a no to using Luso aswell as a no to the mare then?



  6. #6
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    More a "no" to using Luso than to the mare. It's the Luso that would give you the ND/Mr. P cross that makes my skin crawl.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  7. #7
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    Sorry I was being thick, thank you for the reply again, I will hopfully put her back to PP again then next year................ if he is still around!! as I have a knack for chosing stallions and them then dying before I get to use them!!!



  8. #8
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    Need to qualify something. If you are planning on using a particular ND stallion for sport, do some serious research on what his get have done in sport with Mr. P mares. If you are planning on using a Mr. P stallion on an ND mare, do the same. Of course you should do this with all breeding, but what I'm saying is that this cross probably shouldn't be done for sport until it's actually proved itself by the results of the individual and particular lines involved. It's a cross that, to my thinking, is riskier than many for sport; so the one thing you don't want to be is a pioneer.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  9. #9
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    You may want to consider Mine if PP is no longer available. He is also by Primo Dominie and Mine raced for 7 seasons before retiring sound to stud. He's also graded SHB(GB). He stands at the National Stud in Newmarket (as a teaser, poor guy!) but he has had some very nice mares to him including an Advanced eventer. I really liked him when I met him. He has a superb hind quarters and although his front pasterns are a little long his legs are fine so I was happy that he'd be a good source of soundness. His temperament is fantastic, kind, interested and easy.

    You know some horses you just get a feeling about? Well I've got a feeling about Mine. He's on a shortlist of two for my mare next year.

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10615749



  10. #10
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    Thanks Viney, I will be honest I am not really up on TB sporthorse pedigree's as I breed ID's mainly, but I have got a REALLY common looking ID mare who needs some refinement and I have recently been looking for a old style HIS type TB to do this and became aware of how few nice ones there are IMO, I was then offered the mare above and as she was a big girl and VERY pleasing on the eye I bought her with the hope of trying to produce a nice stallion as all the nice ones I have found are getting on and there doesn't seem to be many replacements. Of course this all depends on getting a colt!!!

    SS thanks for that I will take a look at him, who is the other you are concidering?



  11. #11
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    The other one is Weston Justice. 3*** eventer and an out and out athlete. He's the more commercial choice and I loved him when I went to see him. But I just can't get Mine out of my mind.



  12. #12
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    Hey Viney,

    What about just ND in the pedigree if combine with other good names like Tom Rolfe, Hold Your Peace, the axe, Ribot and Swoons Son? Also 5-P dam line.

    No Mr. P in there...

    Just curious..



  13. #13
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    SS nice choice! Wish I had some money as have been cruising NZ TB's and have found a couple that I would love,this one being my favourite so far
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10006154

    Also Viney what do you think to this boy
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10113567
    Not necessarily for the above mares but for SHB in general?

    Thanks



  14. #14
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    Like them both a lot. Aspect has the french jumping lines from Vieux Manoir, as well as Wild Risk and the rest of his top side is equally nice. Bottom side is also very nice. The ND is on top of some sterling lines from the US, and the tail female is outstanding.

    It's the same tail female line as the recently deceased stallion Cult Hero. His dam was the full sister of this guy's dam, and he was ND on top. So he goes to show that ND on top of the right mare lines can produce very athletic horses. Here, you only have the one ND line, super mares involved, and a superior and proven French line for sport on top. The same should hold for a mare with a single ND line. If bred to a stallion from the great UK sport horse lines that don't have ANY Mr. P and wouldn't produce an ND double, the prospects are good.

    Love the New Zealand stallion, but he looks tiny to me. He's quite the looker, isn't he? Pedigree is very, very nice.

    One thing you Europeans don't seem to have a grip on is the very high quality of the US Fair Play/Man O'War lines for the jumping pursuits. Relic, who is in this fellow's pedigree was exported, and is Matchem line. His descendants have a lot to offer sport horse people. If Olympic Times (US bred and standing in the UK) were still standing and you could tolerate a small sire, he'd be a lovely event horse match with European mares. His pedigree for sport is about as good as it gets. The Relic lines have crossed over into WB breeding through several different representative--his daughter Relance being one, and his son Buisson Ardent being another.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  15. #15
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    Kilimanjaro is 16hh so yes quite small, been trying to find where he is standing now as on the stud he is advertised at website it says he was ''sold to Irish interests in 2006''!!! Hopefully that means he is more within reach for me to use.

    Thanks for the info again.



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