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  1. #1
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    Default Judges' score difference at CDS/USDF Region 7 Champs

    I went to this show at Los Angeles Equestrian Center to help a friend who was showing in the upper level amateur division.
    Her test scores varied by quite a bit between the two judges who scored her ride (difference was usually 3 pts per movement, sometimes more, sometimes less). We noticed the disparity, and knew that sometimes it happens.

    As the weekend went on, my friend said she heard several people - trainers and amateurs - complaining to management about the difference in scores on their tests, and the especially low scores given by a particular judge. One trainer was very vocal and made a scene in the warm up ring.

    Question: how far do you take your complaint ? only to show management, or up to USEF/USDF ? Does anyone up there really care anyway ? The results can't be changed....
    Last edited by Mardi; Oct. 13, 2010 at 06:41 PM.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  2. #2
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    Do you have a time machine, Mardi? Did you go into the future and see what the results were going to be for the show? Because Region 9 Championships aren't until November 4. I think you mean Region 7.
    "I'm holding out for the $100,000 Crossrail Classic in 2012." --mem
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  3. #3
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    Default

    If the judging was CONSISTENT I'd say you have nothing to complain about.



  4. #4
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    Default

    I assume you are talking about FEI double-judged classes, where the judges were (from the sounds of it) very far apart. I would definitely fill out an evaluation form and send it in.



  5. #5
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    There was a lot wrong with that show, IMO.

    I also heard about some pretty *significant* differences (10 percentage points?!). Have they posted the results online yet? It would be interesting to see which judges created the commotion, and if it was consistent throughout the show.



  6. #6
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    There's not much you can do. Fill in an evaluation form. Welcome to politics. Hey, I got that beat. I had a 20 PERCENT difference in scores between judges at the championships (in LA no less.) One judge was the head of the FEI at the time and gave me a 65%. The other didn't like "colored" horses and gave me a 45%



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by honeydoozy View Post
    There was a lot wrong with that show, IMO.

    I also heard about some pretty *significant* differences (10 percentage points?!). Have they posted the results online yet? It would be interesting to see which judges created the commotion, and if it was consistent throughout the show.
    I was there competing this weekend. It was my first year in the dressage world and first time competing at championships. Overall I wasn't impressed with the running of the show at LAEC. It was really hard to find the stabling maps etc and several of the help were snippy.

    Many of the exhibitor dinners and hospitality that were listed in the premium never happened. Dinners were to be provided every night and all that happened was Little Caesars Pizza the first night. A lot of folks in the barns were upset about this as they were counting on those dinners after riding all day. There wasn't an announcement or revised premium - they just never happened. We asked and were told they didn't have sponsors for them so they canceled them. Yet they were charging people to attend and watch the show...

    Lots of gorgeous horses and met some great folks. The only scores I've seen online so far are on Cornerstone. They are the grand total scores though. I'd photographed the score sheets for my class so could see the comparison on all the scores.

    http://www.cornerstonedressage.com/results/2010USDF.pdf
    Cloverfox Stables



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLIPPED HER HALO View Post
    We asked and were told they didn't have sponsors for them so they canceled them. Yet they were charging people to attend and watch the show...
    I thought the charging of $10 *per day* was ridiculous. We need to be encouraging spectators/sponsors, not shut them out! If I were a vendor, I would be seriously upset. It's bad enough to have to pay $$ for a spot, but then to have your audience limited, is really unfortunate.

    Like I said, there was a LOT wrong with this Championship show... please don't let it turn you off - I hope you had a good time anyway!!

    (and thanks for posting some scores! )



  9. #9
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    At the championships, the placing is more important than the percentage, so one judge being consistently lower should not be a big problem.

    It's also worth noting that judges have different views of the action. It was interesting to watch the live scoring at WEG. Frequently, the judges gave similar marks. But, frequently, they gave marks that were quite different; I know I saw one that got 4 and 8. Sometimes the glorious extended canter from the side is way crooked from the front, etc.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  10. #10
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    This should not be a surprise to anyone. As we documented in our statistical analysis paper, a 10-13% point difference in scores between the high scoring judges and the low scoring judges is real. If you showed before one of the highest of the high scoring judges and one of the lowest of the low scoring judges, an even greater difference is possible.

    Does this constitute a "reportable offense"? If each judge was consistent in their scoring and each class was ranked appropriately, probably not. While it is not pretty and does not do anything to advance the cause of judges as fair arbiters of dressage standards, having differences of opinion is not against any rules.

    Does this wide difference constitute a problem for the dressage world? Very much yes. Lack of consistency in the application of the test standards eats away at the core of the showing process. It also calls into question the validity of all those awards that are based on achieving or exceeding a set point bar .... if you are smart and judge shop carefully, you can win a bunch of big awards yet not have the refined skills that should go with those scores.

    *star*
    "Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit."
    - Desiderata, (c) Max Ehrman, 1926



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    Her test scores varied by quite a bit between the two judges who scored her ride (difference was usually 3 pts per movement, sometimes more, sometimes less). We noticed the disparity, and knew that sometimes it happens..
    So are you saying that for example one judge gave her "extended trot" and 8 and the other a 5 and that was consistent throughout the majority of the movements of the test?

    If so I don't think that should happen.

    I can see how one judge would think "7" and the other "6" and that the percentage might thus be "70" and "60", but I think a 3 point difference in the movement should be an oddity.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterOffRed View Post
    Do you have a time machine, Mardi? Did you go into the future and see what the results were going to be for the show? Because Region 9 Championships aren't until November 4. I think you mean Region 7.
    OMG. Yes, Region SEVEN.
    Thanks.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by caddym View Post
    So are you saying that for example one judge gave her "extended trot" and 8 and the other a 5 and that was consistent throughout the majority of the movements of the test?
    Yes.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLIPPED HER HALO View Post
    Many of the exhibitor dinners and hospitality that were listed in the premium never happened. Dinners were to be provided every night and all that happened was Little Caesars Pizza the first night. A lot of folks in the barns were upset about this as they were counting on those dinners after riding all day. There wasn't an announcement or revised premium - they just never happened. We asked and were told they didn't have sponsors for them so they canceled them.
    Didn't have sponsors ? That's absurd. Who advertises an event, and THEN tries to find a sponsor ? If a sponsor can't be found, the party still goes on out of pocket. You can't take it back !! What a public relations nightmare. I know people who would have gladly sponsored one of the parties.

    If anyone is going to complain to USEF about the show, another letter should be sent to the title sponsor of the USDF Regional Champs: Great American Insurance Group.
    -Amor vincit omnia-



  15. #15
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    Scores for two different classes from the Reg 7/CDS Show as posted on someone's Facebook. Class and horse names cropped to protect the innocent. Don't know if Judge B and Judge C were the same for each class. Note the disparity between the two judges on the first two horses in the second class: one got 56% from C and 77% from B, while the other got 72% from C and 63% from B (percentages rounded to nearest whole number) so, at least in that case, the placings weren't consistent from judge to judge.
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    The Evil Chem Prof



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    Didn't have sponsors ? That's absurd. Who advertises an event, and THEN tries to find a sponsor ? If a sponsor can't be found, the party still goes on out of pocket. You can't take it back !! What a public relations nightmare. I know people who would have gladly sponsored one of the parties.

    If anyone is going to complain to USEF about the show, another letter should be sent to the title sponsor of the USDF Regional Champs: Great American Insurance Group.
    CDS sent an email today asking for our comments on the shows - both good and bad. I mentioned this among a few other things. The MEC show last year seemed to run a lot smoother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
    Scores for two different classes from the Reg 7/CDS Show as posted on someone's Facebook. Class and horse names cropped to protect the innocent. Don't know if Judge B and Judge C were the same for each class. Note the disparity between the two judges on the first two horses in the second class: one got 56% from C and 77% from B, while the other got 72% from C and 63% from B (percentages rounded to nearest whole number) so, at least in that case, the placings weren't consistent from judge to judge.
    Wow, some of those are pretty different. I know in my class I competed in the scorea were darn consistent. There were a few that were off by a few percents, but for my own score it was really similar between both judges.
    Cloverfox Stables



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardi View Post
    Didn't have sponsors ? That's absurd. Who advertises an event, and THEN tries to find a sponsor ? If a sponsor can't be found, the party still goes on out of pocket. You can't take it back !! What a public relations nightmare. I know people who would have gladly sponsored one of the parties.

    If anyone is going to complain to USEF about the show, another letter should be sent to the title sponsor of the USDF Regional Champs: Great American Insurance Group.
    Yeah, I'm not really buying the "no sponsors" thing either. If you say you're going to do something - do it.

    (that $10 per person/day entrance fee should have offset some of that??)

    Then again, I've come to NOT expect to see the advertised "hospitality" events at the LAEC shows... they just don't really happen, and when they *do*, they seem like an afterthought and not a real attempt to appreciate and celebrate exhibitors ( who sort of make the whole thing happen, ya know?).

    The whole "vibe" coming from the production of that show just seemed...unfriendly.



  18. #18
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    If you, as a rider, received extremely disparate scores and you are not happy about it, fill out a show report.

    This is the ONLY way that this information will get reviewed by the Licensed Officials Committee.



  19. #19
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    It's hard to believe there wasn't SOME kind of mix-up or scoring error on the test that got a 55.9% from one judge and a 77% from the other judge. I just can't fathom how 2 judges can see a test THAT differently!
    Triple J Ranch Sporthorses
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  20. #20
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    I attended the show. I have attended the region 7 annual show for several years in a row. First of all, I have yet to see the evening hospitality event offer up anything much better than Little Caesars Pizza.

    We also need to remember the RAIN!!!! It basically rained for two days (tues and wed) straight right before the show. I think show management had a lot more things to deal with rather than if we liked the pizza. They had to reschedule classes to fit everything from 5 arenas into the usable three arenas. They had to deal with the fact that for most of the first day of the show (thurs), there was one arena and a parking lot to use for lunging and warm-up and schooling. What some of the competitors at the show seem to forget was, this was happening to ALL of the competitors and not to just their so important self. Show management was getting pounded by complaints and it isn't like they ordered the rain, they were doing the best they could with the hand that EVERYONE was dealt.

    The show management is the same if the annual show is at Rancho Murrieta, LAEC or Woodside. I think we should all be counting our lucky stars that we are having the show at Rancho Murrieta instead of Woodside next year.



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