[alibi_18]

I will add that I really really liked the 'good exemple' of what a 'dressage' canter should look like....(poor girl who's been dragged into that! )
but that picture is showing an un-collected, not engaged, kinda sloppy happy canter...would have probably get a 7 at training level...and the girl is smiling!

So my analysis of the situation? Edward Gal should smile more!
(he has plenty of reasons to do so!)

[shea'smom]

what a stupid waste of time. Ridiculous comments that are not even supported by the pictures. I want that 60 seconds of my life back.

[CHT]

I do not think it is anything to do with Rules being broken, so poor choice of title, but I do think that what the rules list as ideals are not completely correct/realistic/reality based. Many Grand Prix horses do not have a true two beat trot when extending. They do still win. Is this faulting training? Poor breeding? or just the reality of the mechanics needed to do the impressive gaits?

I am thinking the latter.

And I think dressage should be about training the horse and showcasing the horse to the best of its ability, and that we should accept some differences in the outcomes based on the horses build and ability. We should not all be striving for some cookie cutter ideal as laid out in some rule book based on writings that originated before such thing as still shots.

[Auventera Two]

I watched the test and thought the horse is a lovely athlete who is fun to watch, very talented, and stunningly gorgeous. However, his movement is not what I prefer - it seems so apliancy and saddlebred'y to me. His front end looks like he's been in rubber training bungees and pastern chains and weights. Hind end does not match the flashy front legs. For a minute he reminded me a little too much of a big lick walking horse. (And no, I'm not agreeing with the OP and the still shots posted. I think that site is very misleading and over-dramatized. But I did get a "gaited feel" from him. I also didn't understand the horse of the century comment. Because he can flip his canons up to the horizontal?

I understand that his 91% ride is what is winning on the world level at this moment in time, and I'm not claiming to know more than 5 FEI judges. It's just my opinion and I much preferred the movement of the other top horses.

[whbar158]

Still shots can be misleading sometimes, I have pictures of my horse jumping, in the picture everything looks perfect but really he chipped in and crumbled on the other sides, but don't worry his knees were perfect in the middle! I have also seen other pictures where in person the jump looked perfectly fine, but the picture shows something awkward.

While there is some truth in a picture doesn't lie (ie obviously the horse isn't hitting the ground perfectly, it can be so close that it doesn't matter) If the eye can not tell that the horse isn't hitting the ground with the feet at the same time then it really doesn't matter, because it is what we can see with our eyes in real time that matters.

[ThreeFigs]

Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.

When a horse exhibits "negative DAP" -- that is, the front of the diagonal pair hits the ground first, the quality of the trot as seen by the naked & unaided eye is judged to be poor. Probably looks heavy on the forehand or something.

[stoicfish]

Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.

When a horse exhibits "negative DAP" -- that is, the front of the diagonal pair hits the ground first, the quality of the trot as seen by the naked & unaided eye is judged to be poor. Probably looks heavy on the forehand or something.

http://www.ridingart.com/dap.htm
Apparently it can be detected by listening.
While I don't care about the actual "legality" of it all, I do appreciate learning a little more about the mechanics of how a horse can move. It would not be something I would readily pick up on without it being pointed out.

[ladyguinevere]

Ugh, the contents of the OP's link is really offending. It was written by someone who is seriously grasping at straws. It really makes my blood boil. IMO, many comments crossed the line, severely.

[carolprudm]

Whbar158, excellent post!

I don't know when DAP was "invented" or "discovered", but my guess it became clear with the advent of good quality high-speed photography and the ability to stop motion and study film frame by frame. The trot that we've thought of as a clear "two-beat" for centuries isn't quite what it seems. Especially when the trot is judged to be high quality when seen with the naked & unaided eye.

I suspect the "positive DAP" with the hind hoof landing first allows the extra "expression" of the front legs.

This is something that is being rewarded and bred for, but is it desirable? If breeders trainers and riders continue to seek out more and more DAP will we end up with four gaited horses? Will the auction catalogs and stallion ads of the future include a DAP score?

It would be interesting to see if the less flashy superstars of a few years back like Ahlerich exhibited DAP.

[ThreeFigs]

I think DAP has always been with us, we just weren't aware of it.

I see it as a positive thing. We want athletic equine partners. There are many ways to define what's athletic. IMO, DAP is only one marker.

[ridgeback]

What is wrong with these photos..can anyone say jealous?

[stoicfish]

The pony club diagrams were a basic tool, but this is the advanced version of how a horse actually moves. Like I said it is rather interesting when considering biomechanics.
As far as being insulted by the authors intent behind the linked paged...I bet Mr.Gal already knew and Totilas ony surfs the web for mares and new saddles. To really be insulting, a comment has to hold some value, and beyond being interesting for learning how that really good horse moves, it lacks a point.

[dags]

I wandered over here to find correct spelling for Totilas (to make an obligatory OMG I WANT!!11! FB post), as HJ is inevitably already open somewhere, and I figured he'd be up on page 1 in Dressage somewhere. You did not disappoint.

But this was a bit shocking.

I do not know the intricacies of upper level dressage (and "DAP" has me totally stumped?) but I like to think I understand what makes a great horse, and have a higher than average appreciation of engagement and balance. Totilas had me drooling- not only because his type was immediately appealing to my personal tastes, but in comparison to what I had already watched.

And good grief, the dressage horses seemed ginormous after the reiners!

The big chestnut with socks, believe got the bronze? He was so big and his rider was so petite (forgive me for not knowing any of the players) - I felt there was some serious struggling, serious muscling to hold that team together. Could especially be seen at the changes/tempis. Now, was this my widescreen tv distortion, or is that horse not incredibly long backed? The horse had some incredible moments, and that chrome really impresses when he sticks the movements, but at times it seemed such an obvious struggle for that little rider to get behind that hind end, and I was a little surprised it medaled. But what do I know? I was watching to learn, and would have really liked to have seen more tests to actually understand how the horses were scoring.

So out of the few I watched, Totilas seemed to produce the movements with the most ease, and to me they were beautiful. Ravel was lovely, but again I got the impression that there was so much back that at times, it was hard to keep the engine going. Still a lovely horse and an impressive test, and I understood it medaling.

So, my rookie question - is long backed favored in dressage? Is this a trend or long established diversion from the shorter backed baroque breeds?

And I'll take a stab at an educated guess on the images in the link, following along the same 'length of back' lines. This backward tilt that is so appalling to the commentator, could this be a result of a shorter back in Totilas? Is it somewhat of an optical illusion? If you take two horizontal planes of differing lengths, and raise their "front ends" 10 degrees, won't the shorter one be noticeably steeper? Isn't a 10 degree incline over a mile less noticeable then a 10 degree incline over a quarter mile?

[suzy]

Thanks for the input everyone. I see that the opinion here is :

That the photos taken from the video at the top of the linked page are examples of a well balanced horse with 3 good, naturally enhanced gaits and that the person commenting on the photos does not know what they are talking about and completely wrong in their observations. I have no idea who wrote the comments but i should be shot at sunrise for asking the question and posting the link and i'm smug which is a hoot, btw.
Too, apparently you all think the FEI rules are being followed and this is a good example of correct classical dressage and the judges are rewarding appropriately. Great !

Still photos are very misleading. Many of these photos were taken at odd moments. I find it interesting that the person who posted these pictures did not choose to post any pictures that were well timed. I have a guess as to who put this together, and she has been a long-time, avid Anky-basher. I'm starting to think she may have a thing against the Dutch in general.

I think what disturbs most of us is how incredibly nasty and mean-spirited that site is. Why would you post such a thing?

[mickeydoodle]

What a stupid set of photos. All the OP does is prove that DAP exists- and that Hilda Gurney is right, it is a positive trait in a dressage horse. The shuffly little scrubs on their web site will never have it, no matter what majical barefoot trimming does.

[suzy]

I I also didn't understand the horse of the century comment. Because he can flip his canons up to the horizontal?

I think this is why some people are misinterpreting the scoring. It isn't the flashy trot that the judges are rewarding. It's a cominbation of a number of things: the engagement, self carriage, willingness, flexibility, adjustability, ease of performing the most difficult movements and so on that are pulling down the big scores. And then there is the wonderful partnership Gal has with Toto. I agree that the trot is a bit over-exaggerated, but there is so much more to absolutely love about that pair.

[betonbill]

Didn't his sire also have extravagent movement? I sort of remember seeing a video of him somewhere along the line.

[OneGrayPony]

No, in fact, his sire did not. He didn't either, until recently.

Here is Totilas in 2005 as a 5 year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A

Then in 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet-Vbg-YJ4

And of course, in 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02PDd...eature=related

It's interesting to watch the progression. His sire moved similarly to the first video - I watched one this morning, but will have to look through my history to find it again I'm stuck inside due to the rain and totally bored witless

[pattir7]

Wow.. I'm not even a 'Totilas fan' and that was just 'over the top' ridiculous. If you are strictly looking at photos and trying to see Totilas 'worst moments'.. these are not it. Not by a longshot...

[amastrike]

Personally, I don't find his movement (especially the extended trot) at all attractive. He's a nice enough horse, but I don't understand people drooling over him. Then again, what do I know? If someone wanted to give him to me, I'd take him, but that's the extent of my interest in Totilas.

ETA: I watched a little bit of the 2005 test, and I found his movement MUCH more attractive.