[ridgeback]

Really, Ridgeback, could you be more ignorant?





Don’t answer that.

Nope not at all just stating an opinion that what Sjef is doing is not cruel he knows what he's doing his horse looks happy and not stressed...Really overweight people riding horses should be in your book just as cruel or and all those ammy's that can't sit the trot...Just sayin

[ise@ssl]

Well here it is folks - If you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas.
If the Dutch want this man as their Coach for Dressage - they are clearly laying down with the Dog (no insult Canines)!

The horse doesn't look happy and he's salivating like this because he can't breath correctly. If you don't think that's true then you absolutely don't know what the INSIDE of this horse looks like when being ridden this way.

[ridgeback]

So, only IN MY OPINION, our horses have done all that we ask. hmmm.

So, are you saying this "method" is acceptable? Please. Explain to me, the unenlightened and ignorant, the benefits of rolkur.

Really. I'm not being snarky. Is there so much benefit from making the horse this uncomfortable? What is accomplished using this method.



And at the end of the day, for what? A ribbon? A medal? Prestige? At the cost of the horses' obvious - at the least - discomfort?

Really?

Well the horses look happy and sound and icing on the cake they win. My point is you have no evidence it is cruel it might not be your cup of tea or mine but just because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Now when unbiased science shows it does harm then I will be on your side...I'm all about facts not hyperbole.

[ridgeback]

Okay, I can understand why some of you (ridgeback, siegi, butterflyiris on this thread) get irritated over the extreme emotions and irrational comments - I do too because I think it just confuses the issue.

However, just because there are other issues that are inarguably more important in the grand scheme of things doesn't change the fact that this video IS ugly. I agree lack of turnout is a bigger deal. I agree neglected, abused or starving horses are a bigger deal. I agree there are worse evils in every other discipline out there.

Sjef has this horse's head tied to his girth. If a random poster on this board put up a video of themselves doing the exact same thing, you can bet they would be crucified. I'd bet many (though not all) of those who tend to defend the trainers using rollkur would be among the group of those railing on the random COTH poster for their very un-dressage-like riding.

Sjef is not a random rider.

[naturalequus]

bort 84 - well said. I have to completely agree with every word, except that I do not believe 'ugly' to ever be necessary Otherwise though, excellent post.

[JackieBlue]

Yes I don't have a problem with it..in the right hands it can be a teaching moment for the horse. Would I want to see the horse ridden like that every day 365 days a year NO. The horse does not look in pain or upset like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this.

Can someone please tell me what is being taught here? If this is a "teaching moment", what is the horse meant to take away from it?

[naturalequus]

Really overweight people riding horses should be in your book just as cruel or and all those ammy's that can't sit the trot...Just sayin

Perhaps it is, for some individuals. But that has no relation to Rollkur. None.

A horse does not have to appear stressed for something to not be beneficial (or even to be harmful) to it.

[LauraKY]

Not defending anything...but, you all did notice that this video is from 2003? Seven years ago?

[doccer]

Doccer, way to totally drive by the point.

Of the three, Totilas, Ravel, and Laura B's gelding...which of those three endured this sort of riding on their way to carrying their owners to Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals this week?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=274896

what exactly is your point then? enlighten me please... and its not even about un-dressage like riding/training. It's general handling of people and animals...

call me dramatic first time i've posted about hyperflexion ever, and its been years... i had a moment

[sunridge1]

Well the horses look happy and sound and icing on the cake they win. My point is you have no evidence it is cruel it might not be your cup of tea or mine but just because you don't like it does not make it wrong. Now when unbiased science shows it does harm then I will be on your side...I'm all about facts not hyperbole.

erm...The Big Lick people use this exact form of defense for their training atrocities. lol

[suzy]

Good post, Bort84. It's the exteme emotions and irrational comments that make me nuts, too.

Some of the extreme bending being used, I don't have a problem with...especially if it is a momentary and necessary correction. Head tied to the girth does concern me quite a lot. The funny thing is that when I watched that video, I found myself admiring Sjef's seat and position and wondering why, with his obvious skill, he is using this device.

[naturalequus]

Well here it is folks - If you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas.
If the Dutch want this man as their Coach for Dressage - they are clearing laying down with the Dog (no insult Canines)!

The horse doesn't look happy and he's salivating like this because he can't breath correctly. If you don't think that's true then you absolutely don't know what the INSIDE of this horse looks like when being ridden this way.

Never looked at it that way (canine point) - good point, though I have never dismissed dressage or the dutch altogether simply because of a few riders. Just saying it is a good point though.

He especially cannot breathe or swallow correctly in a hand-dominated ride with his tongue being compressed down as it is. Being unable to lift his head further compounds the issue. There is a reason the poll is supposed to be the highest point with the head in front of the vertical. That is the position most beneficial to the horse's breathing, swallowing, musculature (no hyperextension of ligaments, etc), sight, mind, etc. Personally, the emotional aspect just rubs me the wrong way, perhaps the most. It is more than wrong in my books to force a horse by tying its head down. Dressage should be smooth, natural, harmonious.

[katarine]

what exactly is your point then? enlighten me please... and its not even about un-dressage like riding/training. It's general handling of people and animals...

call me dramatic first time i've posted about hyperflexion ever, and its been years... i had a moment

Answer the question: IF Sjef's video = modern dressage, then please enlighten me: Which of the three horses, Ravel, Toto, or Alf, or some combo of the three...three horses who medaled this week at WEG..THEN please let the world know, which one(s)- of those three- are ridden as Sjef is shown riding in the video linked previously in this thread...

After all, if Sjef=all modern, current,winning dressage- then the answer should be simple and obvious, no?

So, tell us.

[naturalequus]

I do not think the argument has been that Sjef=all modern, current, winning dressage, just that Sjef=much modern, current, winning dressage. Or enough to warrant attention. None is right.

Asking honestly here, but is Gal not a student of Anky? I just watched a youtube of him performing Rollkur (on Totilas) at a clinic, though not as forcefully as I have seen and not for quite such sustained periods, but it does personally make me doubt Rollkur has never been used on Totilas behind the scenes????? Like I said, honestly asking.

[JackieBlue]

Can someone please tell me what is being taught here? If this is a "teaching moment", what is the horse meant to take away from it?

Anyone? The lesson being taught by tying the head to the girth? Really. I want to know. If this is a "teaching moment", what is being taught?

[katarine]

I do not think the argument has been that Sjef=all modern, current, winning dressage, just that Sjef=much modern, current, winning dressage. Or enough to warrant attention. None is right.

Asking honestly here, but is Gal not a student of Anky? I just watched a youtube of him performing Rollkur (on Totilas) at a clinic, though not as forcefully as I have seen and not for quite such sustained periods, but it does personally make me doubt Rollkur has never been used on Totilas behind the scenes????? Like I said, honestly asking.

Actually, this is what I read, that is prompting the conversation between Doccer and me:

dressage is a joke... and i used to LOVE dressage. tying the head isnt training, hell, i'll tie my horses head to the girth tomoro and call it trained ... yeah sounds stupid

f*cking joke

That's a blanket statement. A statement I'm questioning.

[mbm]

the teaching moment is" do as i say, no matter what or i will truss you up like a thanksgiving turkey until you do"

repeat as needed until horse has no will and will do as told .

[doccer]

Answer the question: IF Sjef's video = modern dressage, then please enlighten me: Which of the three horses, Ravel, Toto, or Alf, or some combo of the three...three horses who medaled this week at WEG..THEN please let the world know, which one(s)- of those three- are ridden as Sjef is shown riding in the video linked previously in this thread...

After all, if Sjef=all modern, current,winning dressage- then the answer should be simple and obvious, no?

So, tell us.

A means to the end doesnt make it right... that means... the methods may vary to come to a similar outcome... doesnt make every method used pleasant.

common sense would dictate that...

[NOMIOMI1]

Does a horse have a will in competition?

I don't know any movement that isnt ridden every step, so what exactly do you think the horse is offering to the equation besides responsiveness and obedience?

I think some are more amicable, or trainable, but I don't for one second think they are joining hands to compete because they are interested in doing the test movements in that order.

[katarine]

Why are you shying from answering the question?

Is it because none of them appear to have been ridden and trained in this manner...and they won at WEG?

If not, please enlighten us.