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  1. #1
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    Jul. 23, 2008
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    Unhappy Sjef riding Rollkur: A picture is worth a thousand words

    This video was posted in another forum, but I thought it was important to post here as some people might not read all the other threads.

    This poor horses head is tied to the girth in the Rollkur position. I am sorry but I dont see how ANYONE can justify this!!! Gold medals or not.

    And YES Ridgeback I already know, I am just ignorant!!


    http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspo...rything-i.html
    Last edited by MLK1; Oct. 1, 2010 at 07:56 AM.



  2. #2
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    Jan. 13, 2008
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    Default

    The link doesn't work.



  3. #3
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    Jul. 23, 2008
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    Default

    Thanks Baroque pony.

    I am not sure why it is not working as I copied from the other thread. If anyone wants to see the video it was on the last page of "Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding" thread in the WEG forum.

    Sorry!



  4. #4
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    Default

    http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspo...rything-i.html

    FWIW instead of copying the shortened link out of a post, open the link and copy the address from there
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  5. #5
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Default

    Sick. Wrong. Cruel. Inhumane.

    In a double bridle with the head tied down?? Heck, in any bridle with the head tied down? Flipping unbelievable!! I wonder if this is how they all usually train behind closed door?

    Makes me want to vomit.



  6. #6
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    Jun. 6, 2006
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    Default

    sick, wrong and inhumane is that german lady that was beating the day lights out of her horse on the lounge line. What Sjef was doing was hardly inhumane, sick or wrong you might not agree with it but that is just going to far. IMO
    Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama



  7. #7
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    Dec. 20, 2009
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    Default

    I personally don't see why Rollkur is even needed.There are ways to get the horses to flex like that without using Rollkur.And I to believe that one could call it inhumane.I was taught that Rollkur creates breathing issues and other problems after being used for a long period of time



  8. #8
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    Nov. 16, 2005
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    NC
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    614

    Default

    so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
    May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.



  9. #9
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    ridgeback - WOW! I can't believe that you are defending this way of treating a horse! Why would you defend it? You like this type of training? May be it is not sick, wrong, cruel, or inhumane to you, but it certainly is to me. Do you treat your horses this way?

    My words are going too far? If anyone is "going too far" it is those that would tie a horse's head down in this fashion!!

    I call it like I see it: sick (disgusting treatment), wrong (what right is there in tying a horses head down in a double bridle, or any bridle), cruel (the poor horse has his head tied to his chest, for God's sake!), inhumane (deliberately tying down head = pain and suffering).

    I am all for the good of the animal. Can you tell me what the good is here???



  10. #10
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    Aug. 5, 2009
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    Default

    I think I've seen that snippet before, and wasn't the total length something like 18-19 seconds?

    Instead, why not applaud all of the non-RK horses that are competing, like the British one? If RK is so harmful, why not encourage everyone to compete otherwise and win? It is possible...



  11. #11
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    Default

    Butterflyiris - you're suggesting the obvious as I have done on several occasions in the past..... But, that's not what this crowd wants to hear. They have decided to crucify all things RK/LDR/Dutch/Sjef and are not about to let go. It's much more fun to continue to regurgitate all this sensational spew, especially when you don't know much about it.

    Not worth the effort to even get involved...
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  12. #12
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    Feb. 11, 2002
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    Default

    We would be JUST as flabberghasted seeing this done in ANY OTHER discipline, so why is it being defended in dressage?



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantastic View Post
    ridgeback - WOW! I can't believe that you are defending this way of treating a horse! Why would you defend it? You like this type of training? May be it is not sick, wrong, cruel, or inhumane to you, but it certainly is to me. Do you treat your horses this way?

    My words are going too far? If anyone is "going too far" it is those that would tie a horse's head down in this fashion!!

    I call it like I see it: sick (disgusting treatment), wrong (what right is there in tying a horses head down in a double bridle, or any bridle), cruel (the poor horse has his head tied to his chest, for God's sake!), inhumane (deliberately tying down head = pain and suffering).

    I am all for the good of the animal. Can you tell me what the good is here???
    Yes I don't have a problem with it..in the right hands it can be a teaching moment for the horse. Would I want to see the horse ridden like that every day 365 days a year NO. The horse does not look in pain or upset like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this.
    Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Dalai Lama



  14. #14
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    Default

    ButterflyIris - I get your point. Yes, abuse sadly happens day in and day out. If this was like the one person with the pelham and draw reins, it would be different. We are talking about a lot more than one person and one incident here.

    This group of people are in the spotlight because they are at the top nationally, and they practice these controfersial techniques, to which many, many people object. They cannot help but get noticed, and tongues will wag.

    If they were all about harmony, kindness, beauty, etc. in their training methods AND STILL WINNING, I'm sure we'd still be talking about them!



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButterflyIris View Post
    so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
    May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.
    Yes there is abuse and suffering all around us.

    Just because X mistreats Y does not excuse A msitreating B. In a non horse concept, there are drive by shootings in major cities but it's still not OK to beat someone because shooting them is worse.

    Pick your battles and take your stand.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  16. #16
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    ridgeback - could not agree more!

    like I've said before many of you that can't sit the trot for your life or are really overweight is more cruel then what Sjef is doing...JUST my opinion .
    OMG! Yes, this is a form of cruelty, too! If you can't sit the trot, please don't!! Save your horse, get off your bum, raise it, and post!


    Lack of turnout for many many dressage horses is more of a welfare issue then this
    Ah, this one, too. Lack of turnout for any horse, for that matter. Horses are meant to MOVE, and they are herd animals! I don't care where my horses came from or how much they cost (or some that didn't cost much), my horses are HORSES first, and then they are my riding partners! I have had people come here and question, "what? your fei horses are often turned out 24/7? huh? I thought they were hot house flowers!". Yep, they all get treated the same - like horses should be - out in pastures or paddocks, and in herds when they can be.

    Sorry - I got a little side tracked here. Back to the topic at hand!



  17. #17
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    Dec. 30, 2009
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EightBelles134 View Post
    I personally don't see why Rollkur is even needed.There are ways to get the horses to flex like that without using Rollkur.And I to believe that one could call it inhumane.I was taught that Rollkur creates breathing issues and other problems after being used for a long period of time
    It also overextends the longissimus (etc) and creates excessive strain and wear on said ligament, which also leads to hock issues down the road. No extreme position is meant to be held so long (I highly doubt the position held in the video highlighted was held for only the 18-19s of the video, and nonetheless the video illustrates a rampant problem where much of the time the position is held much longer than 18-19s) and doing so creates discomfort at best and pain at worst for the horse. Nevermind stripping the horse of its vision in such a position and impairing its breathing.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButterflyIris View Post
    so - this is starting to feel very ethnocentric - ie: hate the dutch
    May I suggest that we look to the abuse on our home soil and start the witch hunt on the reiners, western pleasure, and the padded gaited horses? I've seen a hunter trainer doing worse with a horse in pelham and draw reins. Let's not get so single minded as to not weigh this against abuse that occurs here every day.
    Honestly I do not usually participate in these trainwreck threads however I did not get that illusion at all, that it was about hating the dutch. This is a dressage thread so obviously this is the place to discuss dressage, no? I hate bad riding and poor techniques in any discipline - WP, reining, gaited all included. However I am certainly not looking to discuss WP here on a dressage thread. I don't think anyone is, hence this thread being here, specifically. Just because abuse exists in other disciplines does not mean we cannot discuss dressage abuse specifically. I do not think this method can be defended simply by pointing out that other or perhaps more severe abuses or concerns occur - turnout and riders unable to sit a trot are besides the point.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  19. #19
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    Default Didn't your momma ever tell you

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantastic View Post
    ridgeback - could not agree more!



    OMG! Yes, this is a form of cruelty, too! If you can't sit the trot, please don't!! Save your horse, get off your bum, raise it, and post!




    Ah, this one, too. Lack of turnout for any horse, for that matter. Horses are meant to MOVE, and they are herd animals! I don't care where my horses came from or how much they cost (or some that didn't cost much), my horses are HORSES first, and then they are my riding partners! I have had people come here and question, "what? your fei horses are often turned out 24/7? huh? I thought they were hot house flowers!". Yep, they all get treated the same - like horses should be - out in pastures or paddocks, and in herds when they can be.

    Sorry - I got a little side tracked here. Back to the topic at hand!
    Two wrongs do not make a right

    Again you can't excuse bad behavior because someone does something different that is also bad.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2006
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    Default

    deja vu all over again
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



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