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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietann View Post
    I do wonder why (some) people are so determined to go after dressage. Not that it's perfect, but... look at some of the bits used in other disciplines, while dressage snaffles are generally not harsh at all; if one shows, they are not allowed to be (e.g. no ported snaffles allowed!) Look at the corkscrews, twisted wires, super long-shanked curbs, curbs with sharp extensions that dig into a horse's tongue, bits made of bicycle chains etc.! (I wandered into a tack store trailer at a Morgan show recently, and there was not ONE legal dressage snaffle in the place. Most were twists, and most were wicked thin. To be fair, a lot of Morgans have big tongues and low palates -- ask me how I know -- so some of those big thick "gentle" snaffles drive them nuts because there's no room in the mouth for them.)

    Sometimes I think the flash, crank, figure-8 etc. get used in dressage because the allowed bits are quite mild. And please remember, cranks don't have to be cranked, flashes don't have to be tight, etc. But I do think it's ridiculous how many people seem to assume that if it's a dressage horse, it needs a flash. (My mare needs a flash with a loose ring, just because the rotation of the loose ring bothers her. As she comes back into work, I'll be trying some other variations to see if she's happier without the "noise" of the loose ring.)
    Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port. Ask the Mylers and professionals who have studied bits. If it is under 2'' it does not affect the palate whatsoever (though of course this may vary with some horses, I am simply describing the typical situation - every horse's mouth conformation need be evaluated individually). Many horses greatly appreciate that tongue relief. Please do not confuse port with increased severity, because that just is not the case.

    Honestly I pick on bad riding and poor techniques (etc) no matter the discipline, not simply dressage. I think that likely goes for most individuals in discussion here.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    So, what about the horses who can still listen while they chew and swallow? Why can some horses listen through the chewing and swallowing, and some "can't"?

    I can understand the intention for refinement and subtler communication however does the drop noseband (and what about cranks and such??) really create a substantial difference in the stability of the bit (research?) and is that level of subtlety really required when it is not required elsewhere in other scenarios?

    I am questioning honestly here
    The flash is not meant to prevent chewing and swallowing.

    It is meant to provide a limitation on excessive motion of the horse's jaw and the bit, and thus encourage expectance of the bit.

    If you've ever seen a horse go with it's mouth agape, tongue sticking out, or honestly evading the bit in any manor (not a comfort or physical issue), a flash can help that horse by creating an exceptable range of motion for the the jaw, tongue, and bit.

    Think of it this way....

    A horse that does not need a flash tends to move it's jaw, tongue and bit within the exact same parameters as the flash allows for.

    That is why some horses go better in a flash....
    Copyright ©2007-2012, Percheron X
    My creative work may be used on the COTH forum only.



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port.
    But what about when you transition to the double bridle. Then you can't have a ported bradoon with a ported curb. How does the horse lift the tongue then? To be honest, I had not thought about it being more difficult for the horse to swallow while in a collected frame.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    Ported snaffles should be allowed - they apply slightly more bar pressure however offer tongue relief, which is particularly important to the horse who is working in a collected frame, where swallowing and lifting the tongue might be otherwise more difficult in the absence of a port. Ask the Mylers and professionals who have studied bits. If it is under 2'' it does not affect the palate whatsoever (though of course this may vary with some horses, I am simply describing the typical situation - every horse's mouth conformation need be evaluated individually). Many horses greatly appreciate that tongue relief. Please do not confuse port with increased severity, because that just is not the case.

    Honestly I pick on bad riding and poor techniques (etc) no matter the discipline, not simply dressage. I think that likely goes for most individuals in discussion here.
    I, for one, think that jointed snaffle bits are not the least severe most horse friendly bits. In fact, one of my horsey friends' dad calls them tongue pinchers. One of my horses cannot stand anything jointed, including a snaffle. She gets spooky, flighty, behind the bit, or running thru aids. And, no it's not my hands. The movement worries her and makes her anxious.. So right now we use a mullen mouth curb with a looser chin strap. She maintains a nice friendly steady contact and soft chewing. Her ears flop as she goes. And I like the curb too. I don't have to do any work. I have my pinkies brushing the pommel, and can do all directions with my seat and pelvis. and legs. I feel the bit I'm using just communicates with parts of her mouth that she trusts. I guess if you listen to a horse, they can tell you what bit they like, LOL



  5. #45
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    Why not a mullen mouth snaffle? (That would be legal if you were showing, and no, I don't think more of people who show...) And the double-jointed snaffles pinch less than single-jointed.

    My mare would *love* a bit with some leverage, based on a few experiences riding her in a short-shanked hackamore and a short-shanked pelham. Many horses would, but for showing, anyway, I play by the rules.
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by 1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  6. #46
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    I did have a double jointed snaffle on her, and it was better, but I just got so addicted to her being relaxed, happy, and responsive with this mullen mouth curb. If it was a matter of her not listening or being too strong, I would surely go back to a solid or double jointed snaffle, I do believe in the training scale, etc. But it's a matter of her mental comfort. She's an ultra sensitive horse and highly responsive. I wish I could get her more collected in a canter, but it's slow going because I don't want to rely on a curb bit for that- I don't want her to do it front to back. So I just keep plugging away at creating impulsion into a soft frame............



  7. #47
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    Oh nevermind...



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Percheron X View Post
    The flash is not meant to prevent chewing and swallowing.

    It is meant to provide a limitation on excessive motion of the horse's jaw and the bit, and thus encourage expectance of the bit.

    If you've ever seen a horse go with it's mouth agape, tongue sticking out, or honestly evading the bit in any manor (not a comfort or physical issue), a flash can help that horse by creating an exceptable range of motion for the the jaw, tongue, and bit.

    Think of it this way....

    A horse that does not need a flash tends to move it's jaw, tongue and bit within the exact same parameters as the flash allows for.

    That is why some horses go better in a flash....
    Okay yes I do understand that, sorry - brain gap out on my part and I did not word it how I had intended I definitely realise no noseband should be restricting chewing and licking and that you had not meant otherwise. I just meant that why is stabilization of the bit so important for some horses and not for others when you consider that they all should be licking and chewing?? I do not think that differences in sensitivity can account for the need of stabilization versus none, either, though I concede that perhaps some horses prefer the stabilization for their own reasons (but not as many as are regularly wearing flashes, drops, and figure-8's).

    But I still do not understand how that cannot be accomplished without a flash. And if that be the case, then why use the flash? Is it not better to rely less on such aids? A prime example: a figure-8 was used on my boy on the track for the very same reasons you listed - he raced in a tongue-tie. It is not something I used at home however via making a few changes (developing him into a calmer individual, introducing him to relaxation, changing the bit, maintaining soft hands, working our way up the training scale, etc etc), he progressively stopped running around with his mouth agape as he evaded the bit. I suppose I could see how the flash or figure-8 or drop could be used to teach a horse what I taught my boy sans specialized noseband, however I suppose personally I just feel it better off to address the root issue (lack of relaxation) than to slap a noseband on it. The same result might ultimately occur however I like the sans noseband approach better.

    And what about cranks??
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToN Farm View Post
    But what about when you transition to the double bridle. Then you can't have a ported bradoon with a ported curb. How does the horse lift the tongue then? To be honest, I had not thought about it being more difficult for the horse to swallow while in a collected frame.
    At that point you could use something different that accomodates the double (I am not at all familiar with doubles to be honest). I am just saying I feel a port should be permitted for the rest of us not in doubles.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  10. #50
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    For what its worth, I was taught that the flash attachment was developed by jumpers to give the effect of a dropped noseband but still allowing for the use of a standing martingale. I also thought the use of figure-8s was to reduce pressure on the nostrils and to allow for more expansion, thus the reason they are used so frequently by eventers and some race trainers.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches View Post
    I, for one, think that jointed snaffle bits are not the least severe most horse friendly bits. In fact, one of my horsey friends' dad calls them tongue pinchers. One of my horses cannot stand anything jointed, including a snaffle. She gets spooky, flighty, behind the bit, or running thru aids. And, no it's not my hands. The movement worries her and makes her anxious.. So right now we use a mullen mouth curb with a looser chin strap. She maintains a nice friendly steady contact and soft chewing. Her ears flop as she goes. And I like the curb too. I don't have to do any work. I have my pinkies brushing the pommel, and can do all directions with my seat and pelvis. and legs. I feel the bit I'm using just communicates with parts of her mouth that she trusts. I guess if you listen to a horse, they can tell you what bit they like, LOL
    A single-jointed bit is going to apply both palate pressure and allow nutcracker action, so I agree with you completely. I typically either use double-jointeds or low-ported mouthpieces and love them.
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  12. #52
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    Oct. 1, 2010, 12:03 AM
    dressurpferd01


    Oh nevermind...
    thanks, you give me trhe strength to do the same thing
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogey2 View Post
    thanks, you give me trhe strength to do the same thing
    Oh, don't do that. I look forward to reading all your informative posts



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    Okay yes I do understand that, sorry - brain gap out on my part and I did not word it how I had intended I definitely realise no noseband should be restricting chewing and licking and that you had not meant otherwise. I just meant that why is stabilization of the bit so important for some horses and not for others when you consider that they all should be licking and chewing?? I do not think that differences in sensitivity can account for the need of stabilization versus none, either, though I concede that perhaps some horses prefer the stabilization for their own reasons (but not as many as are regularly wearing flashes, drops, and figure-8's).

    But I still do not understand how that cannot be accomplished without a flash. And if that be the case, then why use the flash? Is it not better to rely less on such aids? A prime example: a figure-8 was used on my boy on the track for the very same reasons you listed - he raced in a tongue-tie. It is not something I used at home however via making a few changes (developing him into a calmer individual, introducing him to relaxation, changing the bit, maintaining soft hands, working our way up the training scale, etc etc), he progressively stopped running around with his mouth agape as he evaded the bit. I suppose I could see how the flash or figure-8 or drop could be used to teach a horse what I taught my boy sans specialized noseband, however I suppose personally I just feel it better off to address the root issue (lack of relaxation) than to slap a noseband on it. The same result might ultimately occur however I like the sans noseband approach better.

    And what about cranks??
    Your question is one that encompasses fundamental ideologies of ethics.

    To understand any concepts involving "correctness", you must first have a reference point to weigh other options against.

    When does a thing or an action become right or wrong? Was it right for ice age humans to remove horses from their natural way of life and begin to use them to perform work?

    When a farmer uses herbicides and insecticides on a field to increase crop yield so as to feed the population, is it wrong that weeds and the insects may be harmed so that others may thrive?

    Could it be that the beholder is biased to consider all that benefits him or her as good, and all that does not as bad?

    In a world created of a finite quantity of mater, how can every single person and every single living thing have all that they may ever think they may ever need?

    Between absolute indulgence and absolute altruism there exists a broad continuum of posable states of existence.

    Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not.....
    Copyright ©2007-2012, Percheron X
    My creative work may be used on the COTH forum only.



  15. #55

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    "Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not....."

    I would be willing to prove to you that no horse needs flash nose bands, etc....it is the rider that causes the such.
    I have actually ridden several horses throughout the past years that their owners said the horses needed such equipment. I was able to school and ride the horses in such a manner they without it and the owner/riders learned something from an uneducated and uncredentialed plain old horseman.
    www.hartetoharte.org
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  16. #56
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    with or without the chains? Over the back or hollow?
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  17. #57
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    Same here, spirithorse, and I would be willing to bet the same. I honestly think it is more human than horse-necessary. That is not to say that a figure-8 (etc) cannot be used as a humane and effective training tool (though I find oftentimes it is not used as such), I just do not think a specific horse has to have it, that the same cannot be accomplished otherwise (ie. via the training scale). As I have stated, actually at least two of my own horses are prime examples (both OTTB's - I had forgotten a second one galloped in a figure-8, likely even a third...they don't with me). And they work over the back, btw. Not sure what is meant by chains, Bogey (maybe I am just having a brain fart?).
    ....horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
    ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.



  18. #58
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    I am definitely not into the tight nosebands, cranking, etc. I have never felt a horse going better when his mouth was strapped shut tightly. I want the horse to be comfortable, be able to chew the bit, and open his mouth wide enough to accept the occasional well-earned treat while bitted.

    One time when riding a trainer's horse when she was away, I couldn't believe how tight her flash was. (It was clear what hole she used from the buckle mark.) I really had to use some MUSCLE to crank up the flash that tight (and I was in very good shape back then!) I did manage to buckle it at her normal hole, but couldn't in good conscience ride like that and lowered it two holes.

    On the other hand, I do sometimes use a flash. Not super tight, though. I find that certain horses seem to respond to it well. I think sometimes it creates an additional level of stability that some horses seem to like when working. Other horses clearly don't like it at all, so it gets removed.

    I let the horse decide. Just like finding a bit they work happily in. A bit that one horse loves, another will hate. They are individuals and have personal preferences. My last horse was small, I had no bits that fit him, and I consequently spent hundreds on various expensive Sprenger bits trying to find something he liked, only to find in the end he clearly preferred a $25 Happy Mouth.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    "Therefore.... Some horses go in flash nose bands, and some do not....."

    I would be willing to prove to you that no horse needs flash nose bands, etc....it is the rider that causes the such.
    I have actually ridden several horses throughout the past years that their owners said the horses needed such equipment. I was able to school and ride the horses in such a manner they without it and the owner/riders learned something from an uneducated and uncredentialed plain old horseman.
    Perhaps no horse does "need" to go in a flash nose band.

    Perhaps the rider may "need" the horse to go in a flash nose band.

    "Needs" are dependent upon a set of beliefs that arise out of a set of experiences that may tend to reinforce the belief of what is needed.

    The act of believing tends to create the need.

    To examine what "is" rather than what is needed, will lead to a set of facts that may also become beliefs.

    It is believed that Some horses go in flash nosebands, and some do not...

    I have seen horses go in flash nosebands, so therefore I believe it is a fact that some horses do...
    Copyright ©2007-2012, Percheron X
    My creative work may be used on the COTH forum only.



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by naturalequus View Post
    Same here, spirithorse, and I would be willing to bet the same. I honestly think it is more human than horse-necessary. That is not to say that a figure-8 (etc) cannot be used as a humane and effective training tool (though I find oftentimes it is not used as such), I just do not think a specific horse has to have it, that the same cannot be accomplished otherwise (ie. via the training scale). As I have stated, actually at least two of my own horses are prime examples (both OTTB's - I had forgotten a second one galloped in a figure-8, likely even a third...they don't with me). And they work over the back, btw. Not sure what is meant by chains, Bogey (maybe I am just having a brain fart?).
    If you have never believed that a horse may go better in a flash noseband, it is doubtful that it will ever be your experience that they do....
    Copyright ©2007-2012, Percheron X
    My creative work may be used on the COTH forum only.



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