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  1. #1
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    Default Shutting down communication?

    I've always learned that correct dressage is like an open phone conversation with both parties listening and having a calm informative conversation.
    Then, why the crank, flash, etc-doesn't that sound more like you're leaving a demanding one sided voicemail message?



  2. #2
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    Depending on the horse, the crank, flash, etc. reduced the static on the line. 'Can you hear me know?'



  3. #3
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    Default

    Must be a preponderance of static on the line these days. I don't see many riding without double bridles, cranks, flashes, draw reins, spurs, etc. and no I do not subscribe to the bitless bridle stupidity but I do wonder. If the end result is complete obedience, or more intellectually stated, 'relaxed, yet active contact, forward and freely moving'; are all of the horses suddenly in a revolt where they do not want to work? Maybe someone should become the mediator for the contract negotiations with the EISTDRU (Equines In Service To Dressage Riders Union).
    "I have brought on the hatred of Wall Street and I relish it".
    Franklin Delano Roosevelt



  4. #4
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    Default

    I rarely ever use any type of a flash, dropped or figure eight noseband. Most horses absolutely do not need it and resent it. I also do not overly tighten the caveson. I think a flash is a crutch for a hrose that has not been trained to properly relax the jaw



  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamber View Post
    Must be a preponderance of static on the line these days....and no I do not subscribe to the bitless bridle stupidity but I do wonder. .
    Calamer:
    Well, hopefully by next year, bitless dressage will have been recognized.
    The problem currently is that the old school simply refuses to admit that continuing to think inside the box of human preceptions, may in fact be detrimental to our horses.

    Recently schooled a Canadian Horse first in bit and then bitless, and filmed it....what a difference.

    That being said, one can ride with a bit if they do not take hold and do not let the horse take hold. In the old days we were taught the vibration technique of the reins, wherein, there is never consistent pull being applied.
    It resulted in horses that are basically free and unconstrained, because we had to ask the horse and allow the horse to make the appropriate decision....and of course that can be repetitive...................LOL
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  6. #6
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    oh for crying out loud...I have a flash and a noseband but my horse and I still "hear" each other. I don't crank anything up so tight that it's uncomfortable but I have yet to kill a horse or have it kill me because I used a flash.
    As for this bitless stuff, get over it. I love to ride my horses in a halter and lead rope when just hanging around. I don't mistake any of it for dressage and yes, even my schoolmaster who works well off the seat. No contact, no dressage.
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  7. #7
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    Default

    Flash, figure-8 and dropped nosebands can help support the lower jaw of the horse allowing the horse to carry its lower jaw more relaxed. They can increase a green horse's comfort level in the bit and in bit pressure. They are not meant to be super tight, and should allow some movement of the jaw.

    I find it odd how many people do not understand the use of these devices.

    I find it equally odd how some people jump on the bitless bandwagon without considering the mechanics of the bitless bridles...particularly the ones with the cross under straps...have you ever put diagonal pressure under your own jaw? Not as pleasant as the sales people would have you believe.



  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    I find it equally odd how some people jump on the bitless bandwagon without considering the mechanics of the bitless bridles...particularly the ones with the cross under straps...have you ever put diagonal pressure under your own jaw? Not as pleasant as the sales people would have you believe.
    CHT/Bogey2:

    A bitted rider should be able to accomplish GP dressage in a simple snaffle with no other devices.....
    A horse does not work with its mouth open, it is the rider that makes this happen.....
    A horse cannot be comfortable with a bit in its mouth for the mouth cavity is not designed for the use of a bit.....it either or both compresses the tongue or compresses up against the palate....

    Not trying to cause a rift here, just passing on information predicated upon me being the inventor of the cross under the jaw rein technology in 1988 and having over twenty years of schooling with it.

    Neither one of you truly understand the mechanics of the operating technology of the cross under the jaw reins.

    First and foremost, the design mandates that the rider use lightconsistent contact...no pulling.....the design requires the vibrate, hold, release principle I learned with a bit 40 years ago.

    FYI, the cross under the jaw rein operating technology has been designed for instant release. The problem is that the numerous copycat bridles do not release and thus I will agree about there being jaw pressure on those units. As for pressures, the jaw pressures do not cause resistance in the neck muscles like bits do.
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  9. #9
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    Default

    A bitted rider should be able to accomplish GP dressage in a simple snaffle with no other devices
    .....

    A lot of horses can do the movements in a snaffle...but what you suggest about bitless is disturbing. I have seen some of the video of what you call dressage. I will tell you that bouncing around on the back of a hollow horse who is built to work over his back is much more uncomfortable than anything I do in a bridle.
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  10. #10

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    Bogey....

    I would love to place under the saddle sensors on Olympic dressage riders so they could see how much impact they are making on the back of the horse.

    As for bitless videos on Youtube, I have yet to see one riding any differently than with a bit............CH of course schools in halter and bit so she does not fall into that catagory.
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  11. #11
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    Default

    No I do not subscribe to "bitless dressage" sorry. As stated I rarely use any sort of flash, never use a crank (altho one of my bridles has one, I don't "crank" it), but I feel dressage is supposed to be done in a proper bridle with a proper bit. The western people have "bitless" (hackamore) classes but ONLY for the young horse, they are then expected to show in a curb bit. I have ridden in such devices, and really you have no "feel" without a bit in my opinion



  12. #12
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    Jun. 23, 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    Calamer:
    Well, hopefully by next year, bitless dressage will have been recognized.
    The problem currently is that the old school simply refuses to admit that continuing to think inside the box of human preceptions, may in fact be detrimental to our horses.

    Recently schooled a Canadian Horse first in bit and then bitless, and filmed it....what a difference.

    That being said, one can ride with a bit if they do not take hold and do not let the horse take hold. In the old days we were taught the vibration technique of the reins, wherein, there is never consistent pull being applied.
    It resulted in horses that are basically free and unconstrained, because we had to ask the horse and allow the horse to make the appropriate decision....and of course that can be repetitive...................LOL
    I agree, that's how I ride. I consider the bit to be for both of us knowing where the other is; a meeting place.



  13. #13
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    spirithorse, if you were an athlete you would better understand. Biomechanics is a good thing if used correctly. My QH does not want to be ridden over his back and uphill...he is not built for the work..so guess what? I don't ask him to do anything collected.
    My Hanoverian is built to work over his back and stepping under with his lovely hocks. He is 24 and SOUND because he is ridden correctly. He has NEVER had anything injected...so why is he so sound? Because I do not allow him to be ridden on his forehand or hollow. The only time he shows discomfort is when I make the mistake of putting someone on him who throws the reins away and bobbles all over his back... I then remove them from the saddle.
    I can't touch my toes or do a cartwheel...so I do not do gymnastics. I do yoga but I modify for MY conformation.

    Are you getting my drift here?
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  14. #14
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    fluffy, since you are so Kumbayah show me the way...post some video of the dressage you are doing.
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamber View Post
    Must be a preponderance of static on the line these days. I don't see many riding without double bridles, cranks, flashes, draw reins, spurs, etc. and no I do not subscribe to the bitless bridle stupidity but I do wonder. If the end result is complete obedience, or more intellectually stated, 'relaxed, yet active contact, forward and freely moving'; are all of the horses suddenly in a revolt where they do not want to work? Maybe someone should become the mediator for the contract negotiations with the EISTDRU (Equines In Service To Dressage Riders Union).
    I like your comparison. I don't want to force complete obedience, I want the horse to give obedience because he is happy to.
    You can tell alot by watching dressage and focusing on the expression on the horse's face. I , personally, like happy.



  16. #16
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    Default

    This article is IMO very good reading.

    http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php



  17. #17
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    yeah, great reading IYO
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogey2 View Post
    oh for crying out loud...I have a flash and a noseband but my horse and I still "hear" each other. I don't crank anything up so tight that it's uncomfortable but I have yet to kill a horse or have it kill me because I used a flash.


    WORD.



  19. #19
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    Default

    Maybe someone should open a new thread,
    "Snarky People Who Love Cranks and Flashes (and duct-tape)"



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches View Post
    Maybe someone should open a new thread,
    "Snarky People Who Love Cranks and Flashes (and duct-tape)"
    I'm in.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



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