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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samigator View Post
    A lot of people don't really believe in fibromyalgia as a diagnosis, and yes, it is very poorly defined, highly associated with depression and other psychiatric conditions, and difficult to treat- because, most often the physical pain needs to be managed with psychological treatment and behavioral therapy (also increased sleep and exercise).

    I would be pretty skepitcal of it being possible in horses, as really, fibromyalgia is a SUBjective disorder, with no significant objective findings. Horses have a problem with the subjective part of the history, not many of them will say, "I just hurt all over."

    I agree with the others that suggested Lyme disease as a possible disorder that could present with symptoms similar to those of fibromyalgia in humans. That, as well as some of the other tick/insect borne diseases (anaplasmosis, ehrlichiosis, etc) can present with diffuse joint, muscle, or skin discomfort, disliking being groomed, mild intermittent lameness, fatigue, fever, etc.
    As someone who has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, I find your comments just plain ignorant. At the very least, before you spout off about FM being pretty much a psychiatric problem, go to http://www.fibromyalgia-symptoms.org...gia_tests.html or www.fibromyalgia.com.

    If you are an MD, I would greatly appreciate your insight and recommendations about how my problems can be mitigated by psychological treatment and behavioral therapy. Increased sleep? Lovely! Tell me how. More exercise? Beyond caring for an 11 acre farm by myself, foxhunting, working out at home, chasing after the kids, etc? How much more? What behaviors should I change to make it all just "poof" away?

    As for horses, if they have a CNS and mitochondria and muscles and joints and stuff like that, if you BELIEVE in fibromyalgia, it seems it would be possible they could have it or an equine form of it.



  2. #22
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    I can't speak for anyone else with fibro except for one good friend who also has it, but depression has never affected my fibro for better or worse. Laying around and resting makes it better, not worse. And IME it's nothing like Lyme, which I have also had. Fibro pain is like torn muscles, Lyme was like having the flu.
    Thanks, I wasn't sure what the differences in feelings were. Somebody having had both could better compare it. Of course I;m sure both FM and Lyme hit different people in different ways but there seems to be a general overall list of common symptoms.
    Were you diagnosed with Lyme rather quickly? The beginning symptoms are very flu-like but folks who don't get the bullseye rash or never find the tick just assume they had the flu or a cold. Joint pain moves in after that. First time I had Lyme it was kinda funny (looking back at it) how that pain moves around without rhyme or reason. Waking up limping because the left knee is killing you, then it's fine and your shoulders are killing you, then lunch time your elbow doesn't work, dinner time only one hand has working fingers and the others are frozen stiff abd by bed time yoou're limping on the other leg because that ankle hurts, LOL! My husband was enjoying it a bit because he's a bit of a drama king and will limp even for a head cold and many times I've had to remind him he's limping on the wrong leg. He enjoyed teasing me back.

    DMK...this is getting eerie. Petey has a broken cheekbone! An old one though, he came that way from out west ages ago. Probably happened shortly after weaning. His right cheekbone has a decent sized dent in it. This last time he was kicked on the left nasal bone/maxilla about 3" below his left eye. For some reason the initial swelling pinched the nerve for the right side of his face. There's a break there, swelling is gone and a decent sized bony lump is still there. I hope it goes down a bit more, it's really obvious. And my vet said the same thing about benign neglect. He's in no pain, eats and breathes just fine now that his lower lip has the feeling back and it's not like there's much they can do for that anyways.
    So now he has a dent in his right cheekbone and a balancing big lump on his left nasal bone almost directly across from it. Poor guy, he has such a nice head otherwise.
    So now I call him Lumpy often...which he probably prefers to his last nickname: Spermy
    Check out his facial marking, yoou'll see why I called him Spermy, LOL! You can also see the dent in his right cheekbone too, poor boy:
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...5/000_0211.jpg

    I joke I'm going to change my farm's motto to:
    Overlook Lea; Taking sporthorses from handsome to funny looking!

    *sigh* And he's otherwise a real cutie:
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ber16th001.jpg
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    DMK...this is getting eerie. Petey has a broken cheekbone! An old one though, he came that way from out west ages ago. Probably happened shortly after weaning. His right cheekbone has a decent sized dent in it. This last time he was kicked on the left nasal bone/maxilla about 3" below his left eye. For some reason the initial swelling pinched the nerve for the right side of his face. There's a break there, swelling is gone and a decent sized bony lump is still there. I hope it goes down a bit more, it's really obvious. And my vet said the same thing about benign neglect. He's in no pain, eats and breathes just fine now that his lower lip has the feeling back and it's not like there's much they can do for that anyways.
    So now he has a dent in his right cheekbone and a balancing big lump on his left nasal bone almost directly across from it. Poor guy, he has such a nice head otherwise.
    So now I call him Lumpy often...which he probably prefers to his last nickname: Spermy
    Check out his facial marking, yoou'll see why I called him Spermy, LOL!
    Ruh roh ....

    I ummm, used to own a horse... in fact Lumpy was his (eventual) replacement because Rivers (real name) or ... Spermhead as I called him in my less charitable moments (see water trough pawing thread) was not particularly skilled in all the requirements of hunterness.

    <cue eerie music>

    As for poor Lumpy's cheekbone, he is a fairly stoic dude. He was fine on Saturday, he was fine for his ride on Sunday only when I came back he had a giant swollen face caused by the noseband pressure (we hunter people like a short noseband). I truly thought it was a cap because he wasn't really sensitive on it and he was just fine. Just lumpy. So I had the vet out since he was due, and yup, he had a nasty pointy cap and needed some work anyway. A week later when swelling still was unchanged and we x-rayed, we both felt really bad about the teeth floating session. It was the logical next step but it sure couldn't have felt good. However he didn't so much as miss a meal and had his head in the hay rack before most of the anesthesia had worn off...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    I'm surprised FM and Lyme feel the same. Lyme is normally joint paint and not muscle pain. I've had Lyme (too many times, blech) and for me it was definitely in the joints. A deep bone pain or arthritis type pain. It's rather annoying. But I've never had FM...is the pain usually centered near or aroound the joints? Or more in the large muscles?
    I don't think they feel the same, but in animals and those who cannot communicate as effectively, it becomes rather difficult to pinpoint the spot where they feel the most pain, so determining whether the pain is coming from a muscle vs a joint vs a ligament can be quite challenging. Hence why we have such a hard time narrowing down lameness.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimelyImpulse View Post
    As someone who has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, I find your comments just plain ignorant. At the very least, before you spout off about FM being pretty much a psychiatric problem, go to http://www.fibromyalgia-symptoms.org...gia_tests.html or www.fibromyalgia.com.

    If you are an MD, I would greatly appreciate your insight and recommendations about how my problems can be mitigated by psychological treatment and behavioral therapy. Increased sleep? Lovely! Tell me how. More exercise? Beyond caring for an 11 acre farm by myself, foxhunting, working out at home, chasing after the kids, etc? How much more? What behaviors should I change to make it all just "poof" away?

    As for horses, if they have a CNS and mitochondria and muscles and joints and stuff like that, if you BELIEVE in fibromyalgia, it seems it would be possible they could have it or an equine form of it.
    I said nothing as to whether I believe in or do not believe in fibromyalgia. What I said was that a lot of people don't believe in it and it is poorly defined- as in, we don't know much about it. Then I went on to further indicate that a lot of people are also affected by depression and other mental health disorders; I never said anything about fibromyalgia being a psychiatric disorder. chill out. . . stop assuming.

    btw, somebody did bring up an excellent point about it often being incorrectly diagnosed in patients with other disorders- neurologic, infectious, etc. It is somewhat of a diagnosis of exclusion, and I think a lot of people are quick to jump to that diagnosis without ruling out other causes.



  6. #26
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    LOL, now I'm hearing Twilight Zone music DMK.
    You had a Spermhead too!
    That is a creepy coincidence because it's probably not that common to have horses with broken faces and horses with sperm facial markings.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samigator View Post
    I said nothing as to whether I believe in or do not believe in fibromyalgia. What I said was that a lot of people don't believe in it and it is poorly defined- as in, we don't know much about it. Then I went on to further indicate that a lot of people are also affected by depression and other mental health disorders; I never said anything about fibromyalgia being a psychiatric disorder. chill out. . . stop assuming.

    btw, somebody did bring up an excellent point about it often being incorrectly diagnosed in patients with other disorders- neurologic, infectious, etc. It is somewhat of a diagnosis of exclusion, and I think a lot of people are quick to jump to that diagnosis without ruling out other causes.
    FWIW I was diagnosed by exclusion and other tests, one being the typical tender points test, but also a high ANA with no other markers, high fibrinogen and other things I don't remember now. Most of those tests for exclusion have been repeated over the last seven years by my rheumatologist. IME at least, I see it being under diagnosed, friends and acquaintances suffering for years before they find a doctor who considers it, diagnosis it and treats it. I do think an inordinate number of horse women have it.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    FWIW I was diagnosed by exclusion and other tests, one being the typical tender points test, but also a high ANA with no other markers, high fibrinogen and other things I don't remember now. Most of those tests for exclusion have been repeated over the last seven years by my rheumatologist. IME at least, I see it being under diagnosed, friends and acquaintances suffering for years before they find a doctor who considers it, diagnosis it and treats it. I do think an inordinate number of horse women have it.
    Yes, similar experience here, lastly diagnosed by a rheumatologist after going through years of tests and medications for other things.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samigator View Post
    I said nothing as to whether I believe in or do not believe in fibromyalgia. What I said was that a lot of people don't believe in it and it is poorly defined- as in, we don't know much about it. Then I went on to further indicate that a lot of people are also affected by depression and other mental health disorders; I never said anything about fibromyalgia being a psychiatric disorder. chill out. . . stop assuming.

    btw, somebody did bring up an excellent point about it often being incorrectly diagnosed in patients with other disorders- neurologic, infectious, etc. It is somewhat of a diagnosis of exclusion, and I think a lot of people are quick to jump to that diagnosis without ruling out other causes.
    I wasn't assuming, I was reading what you wrote. Ever since Cymbalta came out with a drug to "treat" fibromyalgia, there's been a huge increase in the diagnosis. Don't know what to do with the whiny woman with multiple issues.... why diagnose fibromyalgia and give her this new, expensive drug!

    Anyway, I will try and chill out as you so nicely suggested.



  10. #30
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    The reason it can't be definitively diagnosed is because, although the entity is certainly well described and real, it does not have a really useful, valid, reliable, reproducible and agreed-upon diagnostic test that allows a practitioner to make the diagnosis firmly and confidently. Many, many other things need to be ruled out first, and often (not always!) it is a "diagnosis of exclusion". That is not at all the same thing as saying "it isn't real" or that there is no way to be sure.

    And although many people are offended by this, it is just reality that FM is very, very often (not always!) associated with psychiatric conditions like depression, anxiety, previous abuse, etc. If everyone would stop thinking of things like this as stigmas or something which is the sufferer's fault or something you can just force away by sheer will, then it wouldn't be perceived as something shameful. It really is a pity, and a conundrum.

    But my point, I guess, is that since it's very difficult to get inside our horses' heads and find out what they're feeling or how they're perceiving things, this sort of diagnosis which IS (like it or not) very much in the subjective "this is how I feel" realm is extremely difficult to transfer between species.

    I do think an inordinate number of horse women have it.
    95% of sufferers of FM as adults are women, so that may be why it seems this way.

    find a doctor who considers it, diagnosis it and treats it
    I've done the former two many times, but the latter? Never successfully. There is no real, legitimate, widely accepted and proven "treatment", per se. Another reason the disorder is so hard to pin down. TONS of trial and error, and if you think doctors who have the patience to see it through are rare, well, there aren't very many patients who do, either, without doctor-hopping, self-diagnosis, self-treatment, abandonment of plans, skipping between traditional and nontraditional therapies willy-nilly, noncompliance, etc. Never mind lack of access to health care! There are views from both sides of the disorder, and not all the difficulty lies in simply "making a diagnosis" and "outlining therapy".
    Last edited by deltawave; Sep. 24, 2010 at 08:57 AM.
    Click here before you buy.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    The reason it can't be definitively diagnosed is because, although the entity is certainly well described and real, it does not have a really useful, valid, reliable, reproducible and agreed-upon diagnostic test that allows a practitioner to make the diagnosis firmly and confidently. Many, many other things need to be ruled out first, and often (not always!) it is a "diagnosis of exclusion". That is not at all the same thing as saying "it isn't real" or that there is no way to be sure.

    And although many people are offended by this, it is just reality that FM is very, very often (not always!) associated with psychiatric conditions like depression, anxiety, previous abuse, etc. If everyone would stop thinking of things like this as stigmas or something which is the sufferers fault or something you can just force away by sheer will, then it wouldn't be perceived as something shameful. It really is a pity, and a conundrum.

    But my point, I guess, is that since it's very difficult to get inside our horses' heads and find out what they're feeling or how they're perceiving things, this sort of diagnosis which IS (like it or not) very much in the subjective "this is how I feel" realm is extremely difficult to transfer between species.

    95% of sufferers of FM as adults are women, so that may be why it seems this way.

    I've done the former two many times, but the latter? Never successfully. There is no real, legitimate, widely accepted and proven "treatment", per se. Another reason the disorder is so hard to pin down. TONS of trial and error, and if you think doctors who have the patience to see it through are rare, well, there aren't very many patients who do, either, without doctor-hopping, self-diagnosis, self-treatment, abandonment of plans, skipping between traditional and nontraditional therapies willy-nilly, noncompliance, etc. Never mind lack of access to health care! There are views from both sides of the disorder, and not all the difficulty lies in simply "making a diagnosis" and "outlining therapy".
    I agree with DW...I do not doubt that there are genuinely people out there with fibromyalgia, but, working in a hospital with a psychiatric unit, there is definitely an inordinately large % of those patients claiming fibromyalgia. Primarily for the reasons stated here, hard to diagnose and, well, pain meds are used to treat. Unfortunately that affects the perception of the disease. I have no idea how you would even go about diagnosing it in a horse.

    Caitlin
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    The reason it can't be definitively diagnosed is because, although the entity is certainly well described and real, it does not have a really useful, valid, reliable, reproducible and agreed-upon diagnostic test that allows a practitioner to make the diagnosis firmly and confidently. Many, many other things need to be ruled out first, and often (not always!) it is a "diagnosis of exclusion". That is not at all the same thing as saying "it isn't real" or that there is no way to be sure.

    And although many people are offended by this, it is just reality that FM is very, very often (not always!) associated with psychiatric conditions like depression, anxiety, previous abuse, etc. If everyone would stop thinking of things like this as stigmas or something which is the sufferers fault or something you can just force away by sheer will, then it wouldn't be perceived as something shameful. It really is a pity, and a conundrum.

    But my point, I guess, is that since it's very difficult to get inside our horses' heads and find out what they're feeling or how they're perceiving things, this sort of diagnosis which IS (like it or not) very much in the subjective "this is how I feel" realm is extremely difficult to transfer between species.

    95% of sufferers of FM as adults are women, so that may be why it seems this way.

    I've done the former two many times, but the latter? Never successfully. There is no real, legitimate, widely accepted and proven "treatment", per se. Another reason the disorder is so hard to pin down. TONS of trial and error, and if you think doctors who have the patience to see it through are rare, well, there aren't very many patients who do, either, without doctor-hopping, self-diagnosis, self-treatment, abandonment of plans, skipping between traditional and nontraditional therapies willy-nilly, noncompliance, etc. Never mind lack of access to health care! There are views from both sides of the disorder, and not all the difficulty lies in simply "making a diagnosis" and "outlining therapy".
    Agree 100%. This is exactly what I was trying to say, just more thoughtfully composed and inclusive. Thank you for posting this. And, I'm glad that somebody understands what I mean when I say that FM is a rather subjective disorder, hence why it would be virtually impossible to diagnose in a horse.



  13. #33
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    Which in spite of it all, still doesn't mean that they could not have it. It just means we don't know

    FWIW, when I was diagnosed I was never told any of this by my rheumatologist, who happens to be the head of the department at UNC. He was very matter of fact about it, told me what we would try first, told me I was lucky that it was not MS or Lupus. Based on my history he wanted to treat it as a sleeping disorder first and see what happened. For the most part, he nailed it and his treatment plan has been successful for over seven years with very little tweaking. I guess I got very lucky and landed in the office of someone who is really good at diagnosis. It was not until I had to use a PCP for follow up care that I ever encountered any of the apparently commonly held beliefs about it.

    So I wonder, about the horses, are there even vets who specialize in rheumatology? I've never really thought about that!
    Last edited by EqTrainer; Sep. 23, 2010 at 11:21 PM.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  14. #34
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    Thanks Deltawave and RedMare for the info. I got my feathers ruffled by Samigator because well, it's the fibro!!!! See, it's a useful thing to have sometimes as I can blame all of my stupidity on it! :-)

    Anyway, as difficult as it is to identify in humans I see it would not be feasible to diagnose a horse with it.



  15. #35
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    The reason why Fibro is treated with drugs that are usually used for depression is because the drugs such as Cymbalta and Lyrica are a class of drugs known as Specific Serotonin Reputake Inhibitors (SSRI). They drugs basically act upon the parts of the brain that register feelings of pain.

    Also, for the person who said that Fibro is felt in the muscles and not the joints...very far off base. It is felt quite extremely in the joints. Check out the specific trigger points that rheumatologists use to help diagnose it in patients. The trigger points are situated over major joints in the body.

    Symptoms are "flu-like" on a good day for me. A bad day can be excruciating.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
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  16. #36
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    I don't have joint pain associated with it. The points are over joints but it's not the joint itself that hurts me, it's the muscle. I do have joint pain but I don't think that's the fibro, I think for me it's years of hard work. When I had Lyme, OMG my joints hurt. So it seems very distinctly different to me than joint pain.

    Have you been checked for all the other yucky things it could be? I suppose we are all different in exactly how it hurts. And your info about Cymbalta and those drugs is exactly what I have been told, too, it's not to actually treat depression in fibro patients.

    I wonder if you could give Cymbalta to a horse who is symptomatic? It could be interesting. I really want to talk to an equine rheumatologist now!!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I wonder if you could give Cymbalta to a horse who is symptomatic? It could be interesting. I really want to talk to an equine rheumatologist now!!
    Probably not, but there have been many occasions in which I wish I could give my horse Ritalin or Haldol.



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samigator View Post
    A lot of people don't really believe in fibromyalgia as a diagnosis, and yes, it is very poorly defined, highly associated with depression and other psychiatric conditions, and difficult to treat- because, most often the physical pain needs to be managed with psychological treatment and behavioral therapy (also increased sleep and exercise).

    I would be pretty skepitcal of it being possible in horses, as really, fibromyalgia is a SUBjective disorder, with no significant objective findings. Horses have a problem with the subjective part of the history, not many of them will say, "I just hurt all over."

    I agree with the others that suggested Lyme disease as a possible disorder that could present with symptoms similar to those of fibromyalgia in humans. That, as well as some of the other tick/insect borne diseases (anaplasmosis, ehrlichiosis, etc) can present with diffuse joint, muscle, or skin discomfort, disliking being groomed, mild intermittent lameness, fatigue, fever, etc.
    ditto.....save me a lot of typing!
    I treat folks with FM. It is waaay too complicated a subject to address here.In very short....it is a whole syndrome of problems that affect many systems....though the aches and pains are what it is best known for. There is a strong genetic component....as well as a hormonal one. Women get it far more, the few men that get it have a strong family history for it so maybe they are "homozygous" for it (grin!)



  19. #39
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    Also, for the person who said that Fibro is felt in the muscles and not the joints...very far off base. It is felt quite extremely in the joints.
    I would say IME that this is also extremely subjective and variable between individuals. One person's FM may not act at all like another's . . .
    Click here before you buy.



  20. #40
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    Misty, I may now have to subscribe to the Alternate Universe Theory ...
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



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