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  1. #1
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    I would like to say that I witnessed a refreshingly great job of judging pony breeding today at Devon. Scott Hoffstetter and Julie Winkel found the best ponies and weren't influenced by handlers or politics. Both the Grand Champion pony and the reserve were lovely specimens, and immaculately presented. All of the classes were very competitive with many lovely entries, but the best of the best were found in efficient style. My hats are off to these two judges and I hope to have the honor of showing to them again in the future. Well done, Scott and Julie!
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  2. #2
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    I would like to say that I witnessed a refreshingly great job of judging pony breeding today at Devon. Scott Hoffstetter and Julie Winkel found the best ponies and weren't influenced by handlers or politics. Both the Grand Champion pony and the reserve were lovely specimens, and immaculately presented. All of the classes were very competitive with many lovely entries, but the best of the best were found in efficient style. My hats are off to these two judges and I hope to have the honor of showing to them again in the future. Well done, Scott and Julie!
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  3. #3
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    Jun. 24, 2004
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    PA
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    I was there as well for the pony breeding, there were so many QUALITY ponies, HOWEVER, my problem with the judging was, the grand champion did not trot either time he was asked to trot. The whole idea of the pony hunter breeding is that the pony is to be judged that day,(here and now) NOT as a prospect. With so many quality ponies, it would have been more appropriate to have pinned a pony who had demonstraded exceptional poise and composure thru all aspects of the class. However striking the champion was, his demeanor was questionable ????? Would I applaud Scott and Julie???? Perhaps not. There were too many striking ponies that were of equal quality that had completed and complied with my idea of the standard to be met.
    Collector of fine ponies.

    In loving memory of Mr.Zipp 3-25-72 / 11-4-08



  4. #4
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    Oct. 20, 1999
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    Virginia
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    laurie, are you going next Thursday for Hunter breeding? Mr. Wings and I will be there along with the Winglet and his SO.

    I've made the supreme error of judgement and scheduled our vacation to coincide with the Upperville show so will miss that this year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif
    "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."



  5. #5
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    May. 27, 2005
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    Florida, Where Ponies are Beachin\'
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    The Grand Champion pony never trotted? The judges allowed it to skip trot...or it trotted eventually, albeit reluctantly?

    Just curious since I didn't make it...

    Cathy
    Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
    www.adventurebeachponies.com



  6. #6
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    Jun. 24, 2004
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    the pony went just about every way but down the line, he really gave his handler a rough time, trot he did not! I am not knocking this pony, I am just questioning how one could be pinned so well! I didn't even touch on the political side of it. I understand what Laurie is saying, yes the usual guys didn't make a clean sweep, however, there were 2 other prof. handlers that did. One did win a couple of classes in a row. (no pun intended!) Was politics influenced?? I really am not sure, the one consistancy was Pengwyn ponies did well! They should have also done the get of the sire!
    Collector of fine ponies.

    In loving memory of Mr.Zipp 3-25-72 / 11-4-08



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2003
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    The rolling hills of Virginia
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    Please forgive me, but I am going to hijack this thread for a minute!

    Question about Hunter Breeding protocol. I will be showing a two YO on Monday for the very first time (ever) in both HB and DSHB at Great Meadow. Is it permissible to carry and use (or not) a dressage whip in an HB class?

    My filly has been working with the whip and on the triangle, using those protocols. I don't want to confuse her too badly in HB, but she is doing well cueing off the whip both for standing up and for troting and stopping.

    I have watched a number of HB classes, but now that it is happening to me, I can't remember for the life of me if anyone had/used a whip! http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/uhoh.gif Can you tell I'm nervous? http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif

    I am very excited to be able to show her in both types of classes in one day and to see how she stacks up on both venues. Aside from being a little downhill at the moment, I believe the quality of her gaits will cross over. Maybe I am barn blind, but it's best I know now! She is not a *WOW* mover, she is a *SIGH* mover - if that makes sense. I am darn curious as to who will reward her the most - the hunters or dressage.

    ALSO: Do you think it would be "in good taste" to request - BEFORE the class is held - a meeting with the hunter judge for AFTER the classes are over? I would truely like to know what he thinks are the best and worst of MY filly only - as a newbie in the HB arena.

    I am thinking of witing a note to the judge requesting such a meeting (again BEFORE the classes) to be given to him (by the show secratary?) after the judging is concluded, so that he knows it is purely a matter of me trying to educate myself. Or is this simply "not done" and will/might offend him?

    Thanks in advance for your input. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

    SCFarm
    The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

    www.southern-cross-farm.com



  8. #8
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    Feb. 8, 2002
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    Does anyone have pix??? What was the breeding on the winning ponies?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 1999
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    MD
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dune:
    Does anyone have pix??? What was the breeding on the winning ponies? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Gallop Prints has photos up from yesterday. Results with breeding info can be found on Ryegate's website.



  10. #10
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    Jun. 27, 2002
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    Foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains - Heart of Hunt Country, USA
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    I am afraid we will have to disagree about the trotting. I was ring side for the 2 year old Colts and Gelings Class, and though As Ever acted up down the long side with only a few trot steps - Dan never quit showing the colt, and got him to trot the bottom shorter side in a very very lovely fashion. and I was watching both judges they continued to watch Dan at the bottom as he continued to show the colt and DID get some lovely trots for the judges to see. They obvious liked As Ever as they kept watching him at the bottom of the ring hoping to see the trot, and Dan did not disappoint them, he kept at it until he got it.

    I did not see the grand championship - so maybe he did not show the trot there, but the judges did get to see it. IMHO

    Gail
    Quality is never achieved by accident - but rather by Design!
    Breeding a quality animal should always be the goal
    \"Proud Member of the Hunter Breeding Clique\"



  11. #11
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    Pony1, you are correct and that colt showed his heart out. No, he didn't trot the best, but he did enough, and they knew what a quality animal he was and didn't need much to confirm it. On the line, he was letter perfect.

    It has been my observation that the movement portion of the class only serves to confirm what the judges see. I have yet to see one moved down because of bad behavior, and I haven't seen one move badly enough to get moved either. They really don't care if they misbehave. If you can get one or two steps, that is all they need to see.

    These judges knew who they wanted to use and they got enough movement to substantiate their decision.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  12. #12
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    Jun. 24, 2004
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    I will have to agree to disagree ladies. I just saw a couple of quality ponies that were of the caliber, that were very well behaved. No, Dan did not quit, NOR should he have! I have seen animals moved on the line because of the behavior. Not too often, but yes I have seen it! The criteria for the pony hunter breeding is as follows:Judged on conformation,type,way of moving, and soundness! It is just my opinion that you need more than a step or TWO at best to get a good look at way of moving! Bottom line is, As Ever, did not go down the line to alot of people's satisfaction. Good thing it only has to be to the judge's satisfaction. Once again, I am not picking on the pony, perhaps he is a little gentleman @ home, and yes,he is striking. Once again, yes, Dan earned EVERY PENNY he made yesterday, sorry to see he had to work so very hard. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...ilies/sigh.gif
    Collector of fine ponies.

    In loving memory of Mr.Zipp 3-25-72 / 11-4-08



  13. #13
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    Feb. 21, 2004
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    Charleston, SC
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    My baby (who I just sold a few weeks ago) won 2nd in her Yearling Fillies class and 1st in Get of Sire! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif I'm such a proud Mom! Pondering making a full sibling for '06... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

    Yay 'Haddonfield's Daddy's Girl'! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...on_biggrin.gif



  14. #14
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    Apr. 30, 2005
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    Alachua, FL and Rockton, IL (summers)
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    Gail or someone,
    Can you find Anne Rosenberg's black filly, Ev-Ry Heartbreak, for me among the photos? I'm lost! Thanks, Thalia
    www.heliconsportponies.com
    www.heliconshowstables.com
    www.freewebs.com/cloudharborgirl

    Home of GlanNant Country Roads,
    Helicon Epilogue and Helicon Corsair



  15. #15
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    Jul. 14, 2004
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    I have to agree with blton9th concerning the pinning of the two year old class as well as the championship.
    The pony pinned did not trot as it was asked of in either situation. He hopped, reared and went sideways. If you read the description of the class it clearly states: "All classes to be judged on conformation, type, way of moving and soundness." That means at a walk and a trot.

    All of the ponies were asked to walk towards the judges and then jog past the judges.

    Neither of those requirements were met.

    It is not as case of being influenced by politices or handlers (on the contrary, Dan Short is a wonderful handler and well known).

    I also disagree with lauriep's comment that the "best were found in efficient style". Read the rules. The requirements were not met, and that is a reflection on judging.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  16. #16
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    Apr. 18, 2002
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    Congrats to Dan and Kathryn on their well deserved win. For all the hard work and dedication this was their yr. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif . Best Wishes for the future.

    Congrats to Pengwyn and Emily as well.



  17. #17
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    How do you know, VirginiaBred, if the judges were able to see what they needed to see or not? There were 2 judges and both seemed very competent, and in agreement about this pony. The pony DID trot across the short end of the ring in the 2 yo class. He was right in front of me, and the judges were still looking at him.

    As I said earlier, right or wrong, movement does not make any significant difference to the judging that I have witnessed, nor does failure to trot necessarily send you to the back of the line. If there is a problem, it is across the board, and should be addressed in the HB clinics coming up. But a knowledgeable horseman/judge doesn't need to see much to assess good movement.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  18. #18
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    Jul. 14, 2004
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    Your comment stating that the "best were found in efficient style" is in my opinion, misleading, lauriep.

    It was completely true that the two judges obviously were quite taken with the two year old, and that part is quite obvious based on the way things were overlooked.

    Where I find fault in the judging was the lack of consistency. For example, the amount of moving around they did, time after time, in the classes. A judge had better be fairly certain when they select what they consider the best, to form a 2nd line, and in most every case of model/breeding judging, the judges don't put someone at the top of the 2nd line that ends up being moved back to 4th; or line up someone in 5th in the new line that ends up winning the class. That happened yesterday.

    When a 2nd line is formed, in approximately 95% of all cases, the one on top stays on top. Not yesterday.

    I also took issue with the extremely short time it took to adquately judge the amount of ponies in those classes. My family has been showing in breeding classes at Devon for 30+ years, and never have the classes been judges so quickly. That made myself, and so many others on the sideline (that I overheard), quite dubious of the quality of the job being done.

    It really isn't about the pony that won, or was pinned overall Grand Champion.

    It is more about the inconsistent job of judging, so many really lovely ponies getting the gate that consistently win, and so many top conformation ponies that jogged better that the one that won. There was no "pattern" set that anyone could figure out. It was more that the judges had their sights zeroed in on one particular pony, that no matter what happened, or what it did or did not do, was going to win.
    And when knowledgeable horsemen, (who watched as the pony did not walk towards the judges as asked to, and did not jog away when asked to), see other beautiful ponies do these things and then be excused say that's not right, then I have to agree, because that's is also how I saw it.

    I show and compete in pony breeding, and know what's to be expected. I also know where to voice these concerns, and will do so.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  19. #19
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    Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I found it refreshing to see handlers who win all the time with inferior stock not win. And as for the second line-up, the intent is to compare more closely the top contenders in the class. Most of the time, yes, they are pinned as they stand. But that IS the time when they are moved around if they are going to be. So, it certainly isn't improper in any way.

    Judging quickly can either be the sign of a competent judge who knows what he is looking for, or one who just wants to get it over with. I have my opinion of what the case was at Devon, and you have yours. That is what makes the world go around.

    In as subjective a venue as breeding classes are, there will never be agreement across the board, or understanding of how the judging goes. I know what class you are referring to; Oliver took a very long walk forward, and Ray, who thought he had it, went the opposite direction. But I have had my hands on the brown pony, and she is lovely. She is legit. Did she deserve to move that far? I wasn't the judge, but the second line-up is when the best in the class are compared more closely, and on that day, she got the nod.

    Maybe it WAS just plain politics, but I didn't find myself disagreeing much with the decisions.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  20. #20
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    I agree with Virginiabred. It isn't the actuality that is a problem here--judging IS subjective in this area--but the APPEARANCE is hugely problematic for the sport, I think. Indeed, while manners is NOT a factor in hunter breeding at shows like Devon, there are those who believe it should be (and a few shows that even offer classes which highlight manners and handling).

    I'm always saddened when the sport/industry shows itself in a negative light to whatever uninitiated public may be watching. IMO, judges have a responsibility to more than themselves when it comes to how they judge. They have a responsibility to the industry and the public it may come to rely upon. Being as outwardly consistent--heck, "transparent" even--as possible has nothing to do with the final results--so no one is dictating to the judge what the final standings should be--but I firmly believe that it is time that judges had to conform to a standardized set of techniques and policies.

    It sickens--and even worries--me to see the numbers of other horse sports swelling while my preferred sports stay small (comparatively, not relatively).
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.



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