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  1. #3041
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    Nov. 5, 2002
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    Default

    so are you proposing a boycott of anyone or any company who has any association with anyone who has any association with anyone on the suspended list?



  2. #3042
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    Sep. 6, 2003
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    Default

    I'm proposing nothing. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable doing.



  3. #3043
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    Default

    Didn't mean to imply that you were - only to point out how ridiculous this could get if people don't think about and evaluate carefully the effect their actions can have.
    This Kim Prince flame has "witch hunt" written all over it.



  4. #3044
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    Jul. 11, 2000
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    Default

    Spina, I think the part that ruffles feathers is the present tense in the PH write-up, quote: "Kim IS also under the tutelage of Barney Ward.".



  5. #3045
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    I understand that some feathers are ruffled, the part I don't understand is where that ENDS in a reasonable, civilized society. Again, would you suggest we all end any association with anyone who has any association with a suspended member? Or, in the case of those who don't want to read their Dover catalogue, those who want to end all association with any one who has any association with anyone who has any association with anyone who has been suspended? Maybe we need to find out where Barney & PV (and any of their students, boarders or people who might have purchased or leased a horse from them) own stock - we can stop associating with those companies, too. Maybe we can find out what kind of cars they drive - or what anybody associated with them drives - and where they go on vacation, what Hotels they stay at or restaurants they eat in, their brand of toothpaste and bluejeans and ice cream....



  6. #3046
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    It's up to each individual to assess their comfort level. No one is promoting anything. Since we will never know all of the associations of the 23 people who were set down for insurance fraud what you suggest is never going to happen.

    For all I know my trash pickup company also picks of the trash of some one who was set down. Doesn't mean I 'm going to stop using them.

    However, it is everyone's right to vote with their feet, wallets, when they find out someone has been supporting and advertising (promoting) one of the 23 who are still suspended and to let whoever is in charge know why. Kim's association with BW is quite a bit closer (and she has knowlege of what his status is) then that the last Holiday Inn he stayed at.



  7. #3047
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    Are you saying Kim is guilty by association? Or guilty OF association? Either way, guilty ENOUGH that no one with a concience should have any association with her? Or with anyone who associates with her?



  8. #3048
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    Uh no. I said none of that. I didn't say she was guilty of anything. It's her choice and while it would not be mine, it is her's to make. I don't know that I would go shouting it from the roof tops either.

    I did also state it is up to the individual's comfort level. IF they choose to not receive a catalog or if they choose to write a letter to the editor of a magazine and express their dismay that this person or any other person publically states that they are now riding with a suspended person for this particular incident that is their perogative. The fact that his name is appearing in a national publication is disconcerting and that she is associating with him is disconcerting to people.



  9. #3049
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    You're right - you didn't say it, you implied it.



  10. #3050
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    May. 22, 2001
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    Where the bugs and the alligator roam
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    Quote Originally Posted by spina
    You're right - you didn't say it, you implied it.
    No she didn't. You don't seem to be reading for comprehension.
    People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.



  11. #3051
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    Apr. 23, 1999
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    Rosehill, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by spina
    I understand that some feathers are ruffled, the part I don't understand is where that ENDS in a reasonable, civilized society. Again, would you suggest we all end any association with anyone who has any association with a suspended member? Or, in the case of those who don't want to read their Dover catalogue, those who want to end all association with any one who has any association with anyone who has any association with anyone who has been suspended?.......
    A person stating in a national magazine that they learned from a person who has been proven in court to have had a major part in arranging for many horses to be killed with the intent (of their owners/trainers) to defraud the insurers thereof - a reasonable, civilized person might be expected to protest over giving any support in whatever fashion to those that support (by paying for lessons/coaching/training and by PUBLICLY, in a LARGE, NATIONAL MAGAZINE acknowledging said lessons) the perpetrator

    [one cannot be faulted for thinking that a student might learn, not just aids, striding, but perhaps also attitude toward the animals]
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  12. #3052
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    May. 15, 1999
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    Thumbs up Everyone has a right to make choices

    Including those of us who are appalled by the activities of what should be our brightest role models when they chose to kill horses for their personal profit and benefit.

    Just as some have the right and privilege to learn at the knee of a killer; we have a right to avoid people who think that killing horses in not an abherration of social morals. That is not a witch hunt; it is not a lynching; it is a shunning of those who practice activities we find abhorrent.

    If someone advertises their training to the benefit of someone who is suspended for heinous acts they are indirectly approving and in violation of the Rules of this Federation. These state that no one is to benefit the prestige or credit of a suspended person. The fact that that person is not there when they actually compete is irrelevant.



  13. #3053
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    Jan. 15, 2004
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    470

    Default Keri Potter Pessoa

    Could you elaborate Coreene on your Keri Potter Pessoa comment? I'm curious, nothing more nothing less as to why the cover would I presume upset her.



  14. #3054
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbird
    ...we have a right to avoid people who think that killing horses in not an abherration of social morals. That is not a witch hunt; it is not a lynching; it is a shunning of those who practice activities we find abhorrent.
    You're right, Snowbird, we do all have the right to learn at the knee of whomever we choose - and we have a right to avoid whomever we choose - but you're making a pretty big leap to imply that by riding with someone convicted of killing horses, Kim Prince "thinks that killing horses is not an aberration of social morals". First of all, unless you are directly quoting her, that's slander, and second, at the very least it IS a witch hunt. You also might want to consider the idea that some people feel that forgiveness after atonement is an important ingredient in a civilized society.



  15. #3055
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    Default Translation please for the non Dutch!

    What is the point?



  16. #3056
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    Default

    I agree, what is the point?



  17. #3057
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spina
    You're right, Snowbird, we do all have the right to learn at the knee of whomever we choose - and we have a right to avoid whomever we choose - but you're making a pretty big leap to imply that by riding with someone convicted of killing horses, Kim Prince "thinks that killing horses is not an aberration of social morals". First of all, unless you are directly quoting her, that's slander, and second, at the very least it IS a witch hunt. You also might want to consider the idea that some people feel that forgiveness after atonement is an important ingredient in a civilized society.
    Not only is it definitely not slander (oral), it's not even libel (written). No where in Snowbird's post did she state that "Kim Prince "thinks that killing horses is not an aberration of social morals.""

    Once again, I have to wonder if you can read for comprehension. It doesn't seem so.
    People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.



  18. #3058
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    Unhappy Not such a big leap! Less than a broad jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by spina
    You're right, Snowbird, we do all have the right to learn at the knee of whomever we choose - and we have a right to avoid whomever we choose - but you're making a pretty big leap to imply that by riding with someone convicted of killing horses, Kim Prince "thinks that killing horses is not an aberration of social morals". First of all, unless you are directly quoting her, that's slander, and second, at the very least it IS a witch hunt. You also might want to consider the idea that some people feel that forgiveness after atonement is an important ingredient in a civilized society.
    As I remember my religious studies forgiveness did not imply total capitulation. That is you can forgive the killer of your child because the hate in you does you damage but that does not mean total exoneration.
    I can forgive them for killing innocent animals to support their vanity and pride because hate would make me guilty of a sin.

    Cain killed Abel and God gave Cain a mark so the whole world would know his crime. I admit, I am not so holy that I can forgive a crime against an innocent animal who tried it's best. Forgiveness is not freedom from the sin itself. Shunning is an established practice by the most peaceful forgiving people in the world our forefathers in this country.



  19. #3059
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    Quote Originally Posted by just_me
    Not only is it definitely not slander (oral), it's not even libel (written). No where in Snowbird's post did she state that "Kim Prince "thinks that killing horses is not an aberration of social morals.""

    Once again, I have to wonder if you can read for comprehension. It doesn't seem so.
    I used the term "slander" as we are on a BB, where this is considered a conversation, and therefore "spoken" - libel is "printed".
    You need to reread the post, Snowbird said exactly that, which is why I quoted her. Apparently, the lack of comprehension is on your part.



  20. #3060
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    Jan. 1, 2002
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    Harford County, Maryland, USA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spina
    Are you saying Kim is guilty by association? Or guilty OF association? Either way, guilty ENOUGH that no one with a concience should have any association with her? Or with anyone who associates with her?
    Spina, since I believe I'm the one who brought up the PH article - and who has written to both PH and Dover - I'll bite.

    I don't know that I would use the word "guilty" in connection with Ms. Prince. She herself has, to my knowledge (which I'm learning every day is quite minimal) done nothing illegal.

    What she HAS done is made a choice which causes me, personally (and it seems a lot of other people) to question her ethics and integrity. She has chosen to train with and to acknowledge a debt to a man who has committed a crime that many people find unacceptable. So unacceptable that we choose not to support that person in ANY way, a stance which has an inevitable trickle-down effect onto people who DO continue to support them (eg: Ms. Prince).

    As I stated in my letter, I feel strongly that choosing to economically support the horse killers is choosing to accept, if not "agree" with, their actions. I cannot do that, therefore I also can't support those tangential people. In the case of Ms. Prince, she herself allowed publication of that credit to Barney Ward, so clearly she has no problem with training with him. I do.

    Because I do have a problem with it, I don't consider Ms. Prince to be the role model she could be. I'm not denying her skills - nor those of Barney Ward, PV, or anyone else - but I am rejecting her casual ethics. I may be hopelessly naive (literally, I fear) but I want a role model to be someone who not only excels technically, but who also represents the best sportsmanship. And I just don't feel that supporting Barney Ward does so.

    So that's why I have a problem with Ms. Prince's photo on the cover of Dover. You may feel my reaction is excessive - that's your right. But tell me - if we don't start demanding that "the best" in our sport means not just who wins, but who is the kind of person we would like our children to be, who will? Does character really matter that little anymore? It doesn't where I live, or among the people I call my friends. I can only hope you can say the same.



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