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  1. #1
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    Default Spinoff from H/J forum...using drugs off label/Mag

    Serious question here after reading the thread about using Magnesium IV just to calm horses for shows.

    Are vets really handing out stocks and stocks of drugs to the trainers to use however and whenever they like?

    I think this is pretty damn scary and unethical. These drugs are being used off label and I would think any licensed vet could get into serious trouble for stocking up trainers with loads of drugs such as dex and magnesium.

    As I stated on that thread.....if you ask my vet for a drug (unless it's something like adequan/legend or a couple of tubes of bute/banimine to keep on hand for emergencies), he will not just hand them out without examining the horse and doing a thorough exam and then, he may very well say..."You don't need it" And he certainly wouldn't just leave stocks of drugs to be used at free will on a barn full of horses.

    Am I crazy, or is this totally unethical/illegal?



  2. #2
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    Default

    Magn├ęsium is NOT a drug...

    And I give mine some Vitamin B1 for the shows to calm my mare down as well. LOTS of people use it... AND these can be bought off the shelves at any good tack stores...

    Not more harmfull than glucosamine, or all the herbs remedies....nor more than the multi vitamine pills I take once in a while or the coffee I take in the morming...

    What is your point?!? You can't compare to bute, adequan or banamine....



  3. #3
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    Default

    Magnesium as an oral supplement may not be a regulated drug, but as an injectable it sure is.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Injectable magnesium sulfate is a prescription drug.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Magn├ęsium is NOT a drug...

    And I give mine some Vitamin B1 for the shows to calm my mare down as well. LOTS of people use it... AND these can be bought off the shelves at any good tack stores...

    Not more harmfull than glucosamine, or all the herbs remedies....nor more than the multi vitamine pills I take once in a while or the coffee I take in the morming...

    What is your point?!? You can't compare to bute, adequan or banamine....

    As two people have already pointed out...YES, it is. What's my point? I think I was pretty clear on what my point is..go over to the H/J thread and read. Trainers are mixing up prescription cocktails to take the edge off their horses at shows (OFF LABEL USE). In this state, if you are not a licensed veterinarian, it is ILLEGAL to practice veterinarian medicine on anyone else's horse. And these trainers are getting the drugs from somewhere and apparently keeping enough on hand to use them during the show season. Where are they getting these drugs in large numbers?



  6. #6
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    Default

    Any substance that is being injected with the intent of changing an animal's physiology, behavior, etc. can very well be considered a DRUG. Hell, it can even kill them--that good enough to qualify it as such?

    Not more harmfull than glucosamine, or all the herbs remedies
    The nice thing about DRUGS is one knows if they are harmful or not, there are dosing ranges, known effects and side effects, and one knows what one is getting. One cannot say the same, at all, about "herbs remedies".

    Maybe when what happened to those poor polo ponies starts happening to some half-million dollar hunters, people will wise up a little.
    Click here before you buy.



  7. #7
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    @Dalpal: If they are doing this and are against the rules/law, and you are aware of it, just file a complain. You can always file complains agaisnt their vet as well... You can pass the word around and make it clear you do not want to be associate with those...

    You know that cafeine is a drug....maybe some here should be more carefull and take it down a little... OR have a beer to calm down...



  8. #8
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    Caffeine is a LEGAL drug. For humans. Even ones competing at horse shows. Maybe they SHOULD test the riders instead of the horses, though--that would be interesting!
    Click here before you buy.



  9. #9
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    Not more harmfull than glucosamine, or all the herbs remedies
    So the herbal remedies which can easily cause an abortion in a pregnant mare is not harmful? Autumn Crocus is an herbal remedy, and can cause issues with cell division, meaning potential birth defects.

    "herbal" or "natural" is NOT the same as "safe". Yew and Hemlock are natural. Foxglove is natural - a little is great for helping heart issues, a little too much will kill ya. Selenium is natural and required, but too much can kill ya.
    ______________________________
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  10. #10
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    The whole issue of herbal remedies is a big one. People think that they are natural and safe. All they are is unregulated. By getting the designation of a food supplement (talking about both human and animal supplements), they do not have to go through the approval process with the government. There is no quality control and no assurance that you are getting what you think you are getting, either in terms of the content or the dose.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    So the herbal remedies which can easily cause an abortion in a pregnant mare is not harmful? Autumn Crocus is an herbal remedy, and can cause issues with cell division, meaning potential birth defects.

    "herbal" or "natural" is NOT the same as "safe". Yew and Hemlock are natural. Foxglove is natural - a little is great for helping heart issues, a little too much will kill ya. Selenium is natural and required, but too much can kill ya.
    I'm not saying they are not...but <not more than>...
    Everything can be toxic and dangerous if not well handle and given...This is why there is some rules where Devil's Claw and Valerian are not legal for shows and Bute and Mg are.

    What is dangerous are the extremes on both sides.



  12. #12
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    It is too bad that in some show circles, it almost seems one MUST use all these things, legal or not, in order to win.

    I don't have a solution, but once the big money got involved in horse shows somewhere after 1975, things started going downhill.

    I certainly don't mind horses and people being given therapeutic substances when something is ailing the individual, but such an individual ought to stay home, rest and recover, not do a shot of somethingorother and go compete anyway. Goes for the riders too. Anyone remember the big name show jumping rider's love affair with Cocaine? (hahaha- yeah, I know, which one!)

    its a darn shame.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    I'm not saying they are not...but <not more than>...
    You said Mg was no more harmful than glucosamine or ALL herbal remedies. That's just not true. Yes, extremes of anything are usually dangerous, but the safe limits of everything, or even whether it's safe at all (ie not every herbal is safe at all) vary, with ranges being very small to very large.

    Everything can be toxic and dangerous if not well handle and given...This is why there is some rules where Devil's Claw and Valerian are not legal for shows and Bute and Mg are.
    That makes absolutely no sense. You're implying that there is no harm in mis-handling/mis-using DC and Valerian, while bute and Mg don't have those issues.

    What is dangerous are the extremes on both sides.
    That's not the end of it though. Take your "safe" bute above - give that with banamine and you can cause permanent kidney damage.

    Just because something is allowed or not does not mean it is more or less dangerous. It's not that simple.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  14. #14
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    Default

    [QUOTE=dalpal;5062205]
    I think this is pretty damn scary and unethical. QUOTE]

    You're telling me! I'm reading that H/J thread right now, and sweet chocolate Christ is it horrifying! I have zero experience with hunters or any kind of competitive riding (I'm only a lowly trail rider), but I think that whole "drug them up to win, the horse's well-being be damned" mentality is just repulsive.

    Also: 1.5 hours lunging?? That blows my mind. I shudder to think of the poor horse's joints. Not to mention, who even has the time and patience to stand there and longe their horse for almost 2 hours? I can barely stand to longe my cold-backed TB for the 10 minutes that I do.



  15. #15
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    Default At FEI comps they do!

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Caffeine is a LEGAL drug. For humans. Even ones competing at horse shows. Maybe they SHOULD test the riders instead of the horses, though--that would be interesting!
    If you show FEI as in in international comps (not FEI at USEF shows), they do test the riders! At the start of the competition you get a list of what you can and can't drink or take or eat. Or at least what they suggest you should not take or eat.
    EG 1 -2 cups of coffee, more than that could push your caffeine level too high.
    No OTC cold medicines.
    ETC.
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  16. #16
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    I never got any list, nor have I ever been tested, but I've only done two FEI-level events, ever, so my personal sample size is tiny. Seems fair to me, though.
    Click here before you buy.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    @Dalpal: If they are doing this and are against the rules/law, and you are aware of it, just file a complain. You can always file complains agaisnt their vet as well... You can pass the word around and make it clear you do not want to be associate with those...

    You know that cafeine is a drug....maybe some here should be more carefull and take it down a little... OR have a beer to calm down...
    I don't know who the people are in the H/J forum...just read the thread.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alibi_18 View Post
    I'm not saying they are not...but <not more than>...
    Everything can be toxic and dangerous if not well handle and given...This is why there is some rules where Devil's Claw and Valerian are not legal for shows and Bute and Mg are.

    What is dangerous are the extremes on both sides.
    I'm talking about OFF LABEL USE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS by a non licensed veterinarian...not herbal ones. The drugs that trainers must be getting somewhere other than a drug store or online shop.



  19. #19
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    Perhaps the veterinarians are furnishing with knowledge as to their use. We keep a stock of a lot of different drugs on hand and give them, at the veterinarian's direction. Saves him a trip on occasion or at least puts a call off until the next morning.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalpal View Post
    I'm talking about OFF LABEL USE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS by a non licensed veterinarian...not herbal ones. The drugs that trainers must be getting somewhere other than a drug store or online shop.
    I've been horseshowing for over 50 years. I've had relationships with many trainers, most of them nationally known. In all that time, I've used a large number of vets and some of those relationships have lasted years. Not once, NOT ONCE, have I, or a trainer of mine ever been denied any sort of drugs by a vet, especially those mentioned in these threads. And, they are given out in sufficient quantities to last months. I suppose this is because the trainer is often on the road and does not have access to their normal vet to replenish their supply. The vet assumes the trainer and/or owner is using those drugs as intended, but how does the vet really know?

    Quite frankly, you may be shocked, but I think dispensing these types of drugs to trainers is common practice. I've never seen it done DIFFERENTLY, actually.

    Take that any way you want...



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