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  1. #1
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    Default New York Times article on air vests

    Interesting NYT article on the Point Two and Hit Air vests: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/sp...agewanted=1&hp

    There's a quote from our very own Reed Ayers on page 2.



  2. #2
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    I would like more information on the study they say they had done by a nonprofit on the vests that shows a fairly significant reduction in injury. I wonder if it was specific to riding accidents/injuries.

    sigh- this is almost certainly going to prompt a call from my mother (who reads the NYT every day) about my dangerous sport. I get one each time they publish one of these articles. This call will probably start with do I have one of these and (since I don't) will I wear it if she buys me one?
    There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
    I would like more information on the study they say they had done by a nonprofit on the vests that shows a fairly significant reduction in injury. I wonder if it was specific to riding accidents/injuries.

    sigh- this is almost certainly going to prompt a call from my mother (who reads the NYT every day) about my dangerous sport. I get one each time they publish one of these articles. This call will probably start with do I have one of these and (since I don't) will I wear it if she buys me one?
    I'll wear it if she wants to buy one!
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  4. #4
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    I think the take home lesson of the article is that while the idea is valid, one should never rely on these as a sole method of protection. That is what the last 3 quotes (including mine) describe.

    The study was done by TRL and Point 2 has put the conclusion letters on their website. They DO NOT state a reduction in injury! They describe a reduction in force and deformation that MAY result in injury. There is NO way to measure injury reduction without extended times of analysis of injuries incurred on XC.

    I bolded and capitalized because this is a common misconception of the testing.

    Reed



  5. #5
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    It was nice to see the sport portrayed in a positive light. Obviously, it would be better if there were no falls that needed any sort of vest but the technology seems like it can't hurt.
    Can you stress-fracture your brain?



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
    sigh- this is almost certainly going to prompt a call from my mother (who reads the NYT every day) about my dangerous sport. I get one each time they publish one of these articles. This call will probably start with do I have one of these and (since I don't) will I wear it if she buys me one?
    Haha, that was my mom's reaction when I told her they existed. Still need to take her up on it.

    I realize it's not an end all be all, but I like the idea of reduction of force.

    This may be a totally silly thought, but I'm assuming that these things put out enough pressure exploding outward that they break pinneys?
    Last edited by melodiousaphony; Aug. 23, 2010 at 07:22 PM. Reason: to be more specific and demonstrate I understand reduction of what
    ~T3DE 2010 Pact Clique~



  7. #7
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    Melodiousapony,

    No, they do not break the pinneys, although they deflate quickly.

    But, "first timers" sometimes panic when this happens - and so do the people around them.

    Most salespeople are recommending that the rider "test use" (unmounted) their vest so that they understand that feeling of "compression".

    When I win the lottery I will invent pinneys that velcro on one side, so one doesn't have to pull them over one's head when trying to get them off!



  8. #8
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    The article should have stated -- as fact borne out by conclusive evidence, photographic and physical -- that Oliver Townend's air jacket did not save him.

    What saved OT was his helmet, which was then tested by the manufacturer (CO?) and measured for the deformities and other metrics. The helmet is a safety product that is certified and tested to an established standard. It performed as it was designed to perform.

    The helmet deserves some credit. Debating the air jacket in a situation where it was irrelevant only serves as a distraction from a more valid argument for tested and certified safety products.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    The article should have stated -- as fact borne out by conclusive evidence, photographic and physical -- that Oliver Townend's air jacket did not save him.

    What saved OT was his helmet, which was then tested by the manufacturer (CO?) and measured for the deformities and other metrics. The helmet is a safety product that is certified and tested to an established standard. It performed as it was designed to perform.

    The helmet deserves some credit. Debating the air jacket in a situation where it was irrelevant only serves as a distraction from a more valid argument for tested and certified safety products.
    I can assure you that in my interview with Katie Thomas that was an explicitly stated point. I do think she was pretty even about the whole thing though.

    I also told her I will continue to wear my EXO and that other vest such as the RP are also more protective than the air vests in other ways.


    Reed



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I can assure you that in my interview with Katie Thomas that was an explicitly stated point. I do think she was pretty even about the whole thing though.
    Putting my professional writer's hat on for a moment (and I assure you that a writer's hat is not a safety helmet, it's more like an inviting punching bag), I thought the piece suffered from a lack of real estate, either via editing or space considerations.

    (Katie Thomas is very good. We are lucky to have held her interest.)



  11. #11
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    Default So how do we get the story of OT's fall & his vest/helmet straight??

    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    The article should have stated -- as fact borne out by conclusive evidence, photographic and physical -- that Oliver Townend's air jacket did not save him.

    What saved OT was his helmet, which was then tested by the manufacturer (CO?) and measured for the deformities and other metrics. The helmet is a safety product that is certified and tested to an established standard. It performed as it was designed to perform.

    The helmet deserves some credit. Debating the air jacket in a situation where it was irrelevant only serves as a distraction from a more valid argument for tested and certified safety products.
    According to more people than I can count, OT's vest worked miracles at Rolex ( I believe he may have been quoted as saying he was alive because of the vest, but I may have that wrong)...I took a long look at the pictures & it sure seemed to me that he was in more danger of having his head squished than a broken rib or 2....but the misinformation prevails. Maybe the vest people prompted his testimonial? I too would like to see clearer and more substantiated research before making a decision on this. Head injuries are what seem to be our biggest problem, so we started from there...and now have tested and certified safety products, as JER states.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlightCheck View Post

    But, "first timers" sometimes panic when this happens - and so do the people around them.
    So do horses. A rider at our barn was bucked off when her vest inflated and frightened her horse.
    2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

    A helmet saved my life.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixietrix View Post
    According to more people than I can count, OT's vest worked miracles at Rolex ( I believe he may have been quoted as saying he was alive because of the vest, but I may have that wrong)...I took a long look at the pictures & it sure seemed to me that he was in more danger of having his head squished than a broken rib or 2....but the misinformation prevails. Maybe the vest people prompted his testimonial? I too would like to see clearer and more substantiated research before making a decision on this. Head injuries are what seem to be our biggest problem, so we started from there...and now have tested and certified safety products, as JER states.
    I thought his testimonial was nearly immediate, before he had seen any replays, studies or analysis - a knee jerk reaction to his gratitude for the fact he was alive?


    I wonder how long it will be until vest manufacturers figure out a way to use an accelerometer to trigger inflation based upon rotational acceleration... and if they figure it out, how many will get triggered by riders jumping ahead or being left behind.

    I look forward to more studies and what we learn - and just hope the vests aren't used as an excuse to be less safe otherwise, because that would definitely be foolhardy!
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  14. #14
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    I believe he said his vest AND his helmet saved his life. Someone with more time than I have right now should be able to find his early quote on the subject. I believe he stated it was both pieces of equipment multiple times.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Putting my professional writer's hat on for a moment (and I assure you that a writer's hat is not a safety helmet, it's more like an inviting punching bag), I thought the piece suffered from a lack of real estate, either via editing or space considerations.

    (Katie Thomas is very good. We are lucky to have held her interest.)
    The article didn't even make it into the Massachusetts edition. I looked for it once I saw this posting, but it wasn't there.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I think the take home lesson of the article is that while the idea is valid, one should never rely on these as a sole method of protection. That is what the last 3 quotes (including mine) describe.

    The study was done by TRL and Point 2 has put the conclusion letters on their website. They DO NOT state a reduction in injury! They describe a reduction in force and deformation that MAY result in injury. There is NO way to measure injury reduction without extended times of analysis of injuries incurred on XC.

    I bolded and capitalized because this is a common misconception of the testing.

    Reed
    Putting my scientist hat on here. Given the rate of these types of accidents, and our inability to randomize riders to air vest or no air vest groups, I doubt that the effectiveness of the vest will ever be proven or dis-proven using experimental methods generally used to test public health interventions. Instead, the association between wearing a vest and being protected in a rotational fall will probably be assessed using observational studies comparing observed injury rates for those wearing vests with observed injury rates for those not wearing vests. Given the sudden popularity of the vests the rates of injury for unprotected riders may well have to be based on historical data. The problem is that with really small numbers of accidents, it is unlikely that the accident for a rider wearing a vest is exactly the same as an accident for a rider not wearing a vest. In most epidemiologic studies, you can overcome this sort of a problem with large numbers of observations in each group, and statistical adjustment for any differences, in studies with small numbers of events, you really cannot statistically adjust for differences in the groups, and you are usually rather screwed. That is, you don't know if the difference in outcomes that you see is due to the vests or due to other factors.

    Now, I doubt that anyone has read this far, but I think that I have a fun new example of the problems that arise in planning clinical trials that I can use for my class this fall. Thanks all, stepping off the soap box now.

    Also, as for the effectiveness of the vests, it is my understanding that you need to come out of the saddle for the vest to deploy. While I have been fortunate enough not to have a rotational fall on with my horse, I have had one while riding my bicycle. I vividly remember the bicycle flipping over my head and landing on the ground still on the bike. And this was before I started using toe clips.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by IFG View Post
    The article didn't even make it into the Massachusetts edition. I looked for it once I saw this posting, but it wasn't there.
    I am in a posting frenzy this morning. Should have read the NYT before the COTH. Hubby just pointed out that the article is in Tuesday's paper.



  18. #18
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    I still think we're in sort of the medieval period of safety engineering for our sport. What we have is wonderful, but I suspect those who take up our sport in the not so distant future will look back on us and say, "Can you believe those people rode without a _____ on?" We have to fill in the blank.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    The article should have stated -- as fact borne out by conclusive evidence, photographic and physical -- that Oliver Townend's air jacket did not save him.

    What saved OT was his helmet, which was then tested by the manufacturer (CO?) and measured for the deformities and other metrics. The helmet is a safety product that is certified and tested to an established standard. It performed as it was designed to perform.

    The helmet deserves some credit. Debating the air jacket in a situation where it was irrelevant only serves as a distraction from a more valid argument for tested and certified safety products.
    I think he wears a Champion skull.

    I just had yet another discussion about his wreck this past weekend and everyone was sure the vest saved his bacon. Even those that I sent the video to seem to really want to believe that the vest saved the day. I think people are just desperate for a solution and want to feel invincible. Not to say the vest doesn't mitigate damage but the nothing is 100% in our sport except staying off the horse.
    "look deep into his pedigree. Look for the name of a one-of-a-kind horse who lends to his kin a fierce tenacity, a will of iron, a look of eagles. Look & know that Slew is still very much with us."



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    The study was done by TRL and Point 2 has put the conclusion letters on their website. They DO NOT state a reduction in injury! They describe a reduction in force and deformation that MAY result in injury. There is NO way to measure injury reduction without extended times of analysis of injuries incurred on XC.

    I bolded and capitalized because this is a common misconception of the testing.

    Reed
    I think that misconception will be reinforced by this article- the language it uses is that the testing showed an increase of protection to the spine by 69% and the "air bag vest also reduced the risk of rib fractures and underlying organ damage by as much as 20 percent"

    RBP- I will pass that along when she calls and let you know if you will getting a new vest via my mom
    There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)



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