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  1. #1
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    Default Advice needed...Would you?

    Would you ever breed from a stallion with very upright pasterns if he ticked all the other boxes?

    The reason I'm considering him is that he is related to a lovely but now elderly riding horse of mine.

    The stallion is in his mid twenties and still sound despite having had a long racing career.



  2. #2
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    I would if he was a good match for my mare. Futher more, he may not breed with them, that would be the question. If my mare had the same problem, I probably wouldn't. Look to the mare of the stallion, if she didn't have upright pasterns, I would breed to the stallion.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  3. #3
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    Would you be perfectly happy if your foal got his upright pasterns??

    That's your answer.
    Riding the winds of change

    Heeling NRG Aussies
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  4. #4
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    Thank you for your replies. I guess I would not be happy if my foal had upright pasterns.

    I have seen two of this stallion's offspring. One is stunning, with good pasterns, and a future stallion prospect. The other, a mare, does have upright pasterns, though not as extreme as his.

    The mare I would be using is very correct. The stallion's dam was exported in 1989 and I can't find any photos of her.

    What puzzles me is that the stallion has a lovely front, (well set on head and neck and sloping shoulder). I had always understood that upright pasterns were accompanied by an upright shoulder. Is this so? And if so could something have gone wrong with his foot care when he was a foal? Or am I just clutching at straws?

    Never having bred before I have no idea of the likelihood of this conformation appearing in any foal I might breed.

    I don't want to get this wrong, this will be a one off breeding project in an attempt to get a lovely replacement for my elderly riding horse.



  5. #5
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    The real questions are: how comfortably does he ride; what's his performance record; is he sound. If all is well the pasturns aren't very important.
    http://TouchstoneAcres.com
    Touchstone Acres Lipizzans, Standing N. Samira VI (Gray), N. XXIX-18(Black), more in 2014



  6. #6
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    No. Never. I like to jump and I want my horses to stay sound long-term.

    Ryha is right though, it depends on what you're looking for and what faults you can live with.

    Sounds like there is possibly some farrier work throwing off the angles, but it's pretty hard to tell with out a picture :|.
    "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
    Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginger Nut View Post
    What puzzles me is that the stallion has a lovely front, (well set on head and neck and sloping shoulder). I had always understood that upright pasterns were accompanied by an upright shoulder. Is this so? And if so could something have gone wrong with his foot care when he was a foal? Or am I just clutching at straws?

    .
    I haven't found this to be true - have worked on a few breeding farms over the years and upright pasterns are not consistently related to upright shoulders, seems more related to upright hoof angles. And you might think that is related to farrier, except I've seen it passed on, the upright hoof angles - good example, Abdullah (show jumper), quite upright in hoof and pastern, great shoulder, great performance horse. Has more then a few offspring out there with upright hooves & pasterns - and soft enough trots! If you are just worried about riding his trot, a more relevant question would be, how easy is the stallion's trot, and how easy is the trot in his offspring?



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumChrome View Post
    I haven't found this to be true - have worked on a few breeding farms over the years and upright pasterns are not consistently related to upright shoulders, seems more related to upright hoof angles. And you might think that is related to farrier, except I've seen it passed on, the upright hoof angles - good example, Abdullah (show jumper), quite upright in hoof and pastern, great shoulder, great performance horse. Has more then a few offspring out there with upright hooves & pasterns - and soft enough trots! If you are just worried about riding his trot, a more relevant question would be, how easy is the stallion's trot, and how easy is the trot in his offspring?
    I am sorry but this is backwards. The upright hoof angle is due to the upright pasterns. The upright pasterns are due to tight suspensory tendons. If we were to relax the tendons, the hoof angle would change. This is seen all of the time. The hoof only grows to where support is needed to balance the horse. It has nothing to do with ferrier work.

    I also think this persons questions has nothing to do with if the Stallion was in work or stayed sound. People need stop breeding to the stallion standing in front of them and thinking that is what they are going to get. It just doesn't work that way. The ONLY thing that matters is how he breeds. If he can throw this feature, and your mare is also upright, then don't do it. If he doesn't, then it doesn matter if he stayed sound or not, because his offspring won't have to manage it. Look to the children, if they have it then so will your foal. That is how we make breeding decisions. How many people have bred to a Palamino stallion thinking they would get one, and didn't.

    Don't look at the stallion, look at his children and his dam. This will tell you everything you need to know.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  9. #9
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    Tim, you may be right on hoof comes from pastern, but my real point is, pastern and shoulder aren't always related, nor is upright pastern necessarily a bad trot to ride, as so many claim. I agree, look at the offspring - as I point out, if possible ride the offspring.



  10. #10
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    With so many stallions out there who throw good temperaments and have better conformation, why bother breeding to a sub par stallion?



  11. #11
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    I'd much rather breed to a stallion with less than perfect conformation who stayed sound throughout a testing career (and racing challenges a horse's soundness more than any other) than a beautiful stallion who went lame. Conformation is not everything. Soft tissue strength is even more important but cannot be seen.

    I do agree with Tim's point though. What a stallion produces is far more important than what he looks like himself but there are so many stallions who do go lame at the lower levels of competition and its all kept very quiet that I have a lot of respect for the stallions who are capable of standing up to a long, hard working life and am more likely to be sympathetic to any imperfections they may have.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TouchstoneAcres View Post
    The real questions are: how comfortably does he ride; what's his performance record; is he sound. If all is well the pasturns aren't very important.
    This. The point is not how he looks, but how he perform(ed).

    The annals of performance horses are filled to the brim with horses who outperformed their competitors while having less than ideal conformation. Conformation is a GUIDELINE -- it is NOT an absolute.

    If this stallion is elderly and had a racing career that lasted awhile, yet retired sound, then I personally would not worry about it.

    You know, sometimes we really do have tunnel vision -- we throw the baby out with the bath water. If you like every single thing about him BUT the pasterns, then that should mean alot.

    Geeze -- I have yet to find a horse (in 55 years) that I like EVERYTHING about. They all have some fault(s). So it comes down to what fault you can live with and which ones you can't. If the mare you choose to match him with has good pasterns, HER sire/dam did, then I would not think twice about it....



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmydutch View Post
    With so many stallions out there who throw good temperaments and have better conformation, why bother breeding to a sub par stallion?
    Just because a stallion has straighter pasterns doesn't make him "subpar." It is just one of his shortcomings. EVERY stallion has short comings...every, single one of them. Name me any stallion you want (that I am familiar with) and I will point out his faults.

    That doesn't make him "subpar." It just means he isn't perfect...and none of them are.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumChrome View Post
    Tim, you may be right on hoof comes from pastern,
    It's not that simple. Yes, you can make a pastern upright by growing a tall-heeled horse, and fix it by fixing the trim. But there are absolutely horses who are conformationally very upright in their pasterns, and that *generally* goes with a straighter shoulder.

    USUALLY the correct hoof/pastern angle is a pretty close match to the shoulder angle when the horse is standing square on a flat, level surface. Not always, usually.

    But one cannot make a blanket statement such all the uprightness being caused by tight tendons. Sometimes they are just born that way, and it's seen throughout the offspring. There is a fairly local stallion whose name I won't mention who is pretty upright with short pasterns, and almost every one of his kids I've seen are exactly the same. That is not tight tendons.

    but my real point is, pastern and shoulder aren't always related, nor is upright pastern necessarily a bad trot to ride, as so many claim. I agree, look at the offspring - as I point out, if possible ride the offspring.
    Yep, agree. The length of the pastern has to be considered as well. A longer pastern that is more upright is not as bad on the suspensories as one that is very sloped. A shorter upright pastern is not as good as a shorter, more sloped one, all in terms of general long-term soundness. The horse's leg is just not made to be all upright - there has to be give at the fetlock, and the short, upright pastern doesn't have a lot.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyzteke View Post
    This. The point is not how he looks, but how he perform(ed).
    I think I personally would prefer to look at the offspring that have a similar issue. Any given horse can outperform his conformation, but that could be just him, nothing he passes to his kids.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumChrome View Post
    Tim, you may be right on hoof comes from pastern, but my real point is, pastern and shoulder aren't always related, nor is upright pastern necessarily a bad trot to ride, as so many claim. I agree, look at the offspring - as I point out, if possible ride the offspring.

    That is a very good point, to ride the offspring is the best test of a stallions contribution. I also agree with you on the shoulder angle, it is not always insinct with the pastern angle.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  17. #17
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    Thanks again for all your replies, there is much to think about.

    I like the stallions trot, it is ground covering with an impressive moment of suspension.

    He isn't at public stud and so I am reluctant to publish a photo of him but here is a link to an edited photo that might give you some idea. It is from two years ago when he was 22 years old.

    http://s960.photobucket.com/albums/ae89/Gingernut1/

    (I hope the link works I am a bit of a computer numpty!!!)



  18. #18
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    Doesn't help much, though it does show a lovely trot!

    I see pasterns that aren't particularly short, maybe a touch and that's a reach, really hard to say, but it's impossible to tell how upright they are.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    I'd much rather breed to a stallion with less than perfect conformation who stayed sound throughout a testing career (and racing challenges a horse's soundness more than any other) than a beautiful stallion who went lame. Conformation is not everything. Soft tissue strength is even more important but cannot be seen.

    I do agree with Tim's point though. What a stallion produces is far more important than what he looks like himself but there are so many stallions who do go lame at the lower levels of competition and its all kept very quiet that I have a lot of respect for the stallions who are capable of standing up to a long, hard working life and am more likely to be sympathetic to any imperfections they may have.
    Exactly this! That is why I do not like breeding to stallions with no performance record. I want a horse that is proven to stay sound. I will be the first to admit that my own stallions front legs are not perfect, however, he is 10 yrs old and sound and competed in eventing for several years and is now back in the show ring in dressage/. Had some time off but not due to any issues with him, but due to our new farm taking up all our time and resources! Conformation is important, BUT it is not the entire equation. Look at Cor De La Bryre, he very nearly was never used at stud as he would not pass inspections due to size and conformation! What a loss the jumping world would ahve had without his significant influence on the Holsteiner as well as other breeds! That is why I put very little weight on "inspections" and much more on performance records!!



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