The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2007
    Posts
    907

    Default Head position when in the "Endurance Trot"

    We don't do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call "the power float" -- those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she's doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.

    Is the low head and neck a good use of her body, or is it a position that indicates correct or incorrect action from her hind end, do you think? It seems like she finds it very comfortable. She is much better at using her hind end than she used to be, and of course neither of us care to be in a dressage frame when out enjoying the trails, but, just want to know if this is a position that can be allowed, or if it would develop the wrong muscles. It is alot better than hollowing, I'll say that! :-)

    Thank you, O Coth-ers!!
    Last edited by SharonA; Aug. 17, 2010 at 09:43 AM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
    Location
    The Land of the Frozen
    Posts
    13,787

    Default

    I think that moving round and soft over the topline is always a good thing. Once my horse developed good muscling and condition, the lower headset, power trot was became very easy for her.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 2010
    Location
    Western NY
    Posts
    1,723

    Default

    It sounds like she's really "using herself" and I bet it's beautiful to see.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    454

    Default

    pdq, I was just going to post the exact same link!
    Some very interesting points are made in there and I secretly gave a big sigh of relief as I already canter quite a lot on a 50 and have not fostered a faster and/or more extended trot. (I can't post the trot at a speed higher than 10mph...) My mare's fastest trot is about 10-11mph but we have an even better canter at that same speed. In general, we mix it up quite a lot depending on terrain, but try to keep the speed constant.

    To the OP, be glad your horse is already offering that low-head position rather than the opposite! You would have a lot of work to do... I see so many endurance horses with "giraffe necks" and it is incredibly bad for their back to travel any distance like that. It sounds like your horse is doing alright, but you may want her to learn not to pound the ground so hard. And there's nothing wrong with throwing in a little dressage on the trail to remind them to be "light & easy" and not mile-devouring speed devils...



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
    Location
    The Land of the Frozen
    Posts
    13,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pdq View Post
    Read this about the pitfalls of the "big trot" during Endurance rides.

    This does not mean it it isn't good for just trail riding. This articles points to the "big trot" being a problem for the long long miles (50 and 100 miles) of an endurance ride, and for endurance training.
    Transitions within the gaits, and transitions to different gaits are common sense - or so I thought. The horse generally tells you which gait and speed within that gait they are most comfortable and efficient at. I don't know any endurance riders that would push their horse into a huge extended power trot for 50 miles - and how many horses could truly do that without becoming sore, exhausted, and thereby reflecting it in their vet scores? The riders I have conditioned with and learned from have expressed the importance of changing what you're doing frequently to rest specific muscle groups and work others. Changing diagonals, gaits, leads, and speeds. That's what I was taught anyway. Makes sense to me.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    454

    Default

    I don't know any endurance riders that would push their horse into a huge extended power trot for 50 miles
    Conditioning rides are different from competition rides... I've followed, or have been passed by, plenty of endurance riders that keep up the same hard and fast trot over many many miles. Many Arabians are capable of doing this without (immediate) repercussions and vet through fine. Of course that doesn't mean you have to ride like that, and I personally prefer to switch it up between trotting and cantering, and when trotting, keeping it around 9/10mph rather than slowing or speeding up within the gait (of course this all depends on terrain.) Another "rule" in Endurance is to keep the pace as even as possible. Having many speed changes is counterproductive so you want to find a nice "cruising speed" to keep that heart rate even. Few people with truly fit horses will actually walk during a competition (unless to climb up or down) just so the horse can use different muscle groups... You may do that during conditioning rides, where you should do all kinds of interval training, hill work, etc. anyway, but it's quite a bit different at an actual event.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    May. 4, 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    15,072

    Default

    I don't endurance ride ... however, the big trot does not feel economical to me.
    Also, racehorses will plane - they lower, the legs become wheels and the back is travelling without moving up and down - again, they are putting out extreme effort but over your long distances, it would not be economical, even though it is the most direct route from the start to the finish.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
    Location
    The Land of the Frozen
    Posts
    13,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lieselotte View Post
    Conditioning rides are different from competition rides... I've followed, or have been passed by, plenty of endurance riders that keep up the same hard and fast trot over many many miles. Many Arabians are capable of doing this without (immediate) repercussions and vet through fine. Of course that doesn't mean you have to ride like that, and I personally prefer to switch it up between trotting and cantering, and when trotting, keeping it around 9/10mph rather than slowing or speeding up within the gait (of course this all depends on terrain.) Another "rule" in Endurance is to keep the pace as even as possible. Having many speed changes is counterproductive so you want to find a nice "cruising speed" to keep that heart rate even. Few people with truly fit horses will actually walk during a competition (unless to climb up or down) just so the horse can use different muscle groups... You may do that during conditioning rides, where you should do all kinds of interval training, hill work, etc. anyway, but it's quite a bit different at an actual event.
    Well, maybe because I grew up riding dressage - extended trot, working trot, medium trot, and collected trot are all different variations of the same gait. I'm thinking this huge, extended power trot to be truly an "extended trot." A working trot can also be powerful and forward without the huge moment of suspension the extension has.

    I think it all boils down to what the individual horse cruises best at. My horse is naturally a canter'er. The nice big working trot came with age and conditioning but the canter is always her cruising speed and preferred gait. Her heart rate is lower at the canter than at working trot in most cases. The stallion though is a trotter. He has a gorgeous, balanced canter, but he'd prefer to cover miles at strong working trot. Every horse is different.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2001
    Posts
    8,542

    Default

    We don't do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call "the power float" -- those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she's doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.
    from auventera 2:
    ][Well, maybe because I grew up riding dressage - extended trot, working trot, medium trot, and collected trot are all different variations of the same gait. I'm thinking this huge, extended power trot to be truly an "extended trot." A working trot can also be powerful and forward without the huge moment of suspension the extension has.
    /QUOTE]

    Like the Op, I don't do endurance either but have to disagree with Auventera2. The trot described by the OP is not 'truly an extended trot" in the dressage sense. That's a good thing because you would not want a true extended trot on an endurance ride or for any length of time. It's a very physically demanding gait for the horse and comes from a high level of collection built up through progressive dressage training and conditioning and it's not adviseable to do for extended periods of time no pun intended. There is an old expression that a horse only has so many extended trots in there so you don't over do it. It's often where the first irregularities show up in a seasoned dressage horse (Rusty, for example)

    On the other hand, a lower head carriage may help the horse access the back and hind end as opposed to a hollow inverted posture. it has nothing to do with an extended trot in the dressage sense though as was incorrectly suggested above.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2006
    Posts
    10,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    Like the Op, I don't do endurance either but have to disagree with Auventera2. The trot described by the OP is not 'truly an extended trot" in the dressage sense. That's a good thing because you would not want a true extended trot on an endurance ride or for any length of time. It's a very physically demanding gait for the horse and comes from a high level of collection built up through progressive dressage training and conditioning and it's not adviseable to do for extended periods of time no pun intended. There is an old expression that a horse only has so many extended trots in there so you don't over do it. It's often where the first irregularities show up in a seasoned dressage horse (Rusty, for example)

    On the other hand, a lower head carriage may help the horse access the back and hind end as opposed to a hollow inverted posture. it has nothing to do with an extended trot in the dressage sense though as was incorrectly suggested above.
    A true extended trot in the dressage sense does have a lot of suspension, but is also supposed to involve some stretching across the topline.

    Any horse with any amount of physical ability can do a true extended trot, although not for long periods of time. Years of dressage training are not required.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2007
    Posts
    907

    Default Thanks, all!

    Thanks, everyone! I am glad to hear that it is not some sort of evasion from using her hind end --- ie, she is not using the lowered neck and head to compensate for _not_ using her hind end.... that's what I was concerned about.

    This is not a dressage-y extended trot in that her head and neck are not in a dressage frame -- they're lower and I betcha her head is alittle in front of the vertical and again, she is FLYING. No big stupid WB can move like this, this fast. (what? What? Prejudice, you say? Stereotyping, you say?) It's not round and soft so much as it is driving power with some elasticity. And, while it's not terrible, she's heavy on the forehand. I find myself throwing in half-halts. I might like to get her balanced alittle more at this pace, but I'm not going to take away all her fun by making her be uber-correct (as if that were within the realm of reality).

    She is an Arab, and used to carry her head very high and travel hollow-backed, but we don't do that anymore and as she is a lady, her hind legs are not as far apart as those of the Arab in the posted link.

    Seriously, though, I don't think she can pull off quite that much flexibility/athleticism in her hinds.

    But, since I know she can move like this on the trail, you know what that means for her for when we do our dressage schooling (insert evil laughter here).



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2001
    Posts
    8,542

    Default

    Any horse with any amount of physical ability can do a true extended trot, although not for long periods of time.
    No, not without progressive training and collection if you are talking about the "extended trot" in a dressage context which is how it was used above.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 28, 2006
    Posts
    10,055

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    No, not without progressive training and collection if you are talking about the "extended trot" in a dressage context which is how it was used above.
    We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Sometimes horses can spontaneously do correct movements without the peppie le peu tense aspect. And very fun to experience when it happens under saddle.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,278

    Default

    urm by the sounds of it sounds like the horse is pissing off, as commonly know over as a running trot as allowing the horse to get its head down and off which isnt a collected extended trot
    here is a collect extended trot that is used in dressage or showing classes

    http://topandalusianstallion.com/pos...tendedTrot.jpg

    and heres how to get it

    Begin with a normal working trot to get a regular rhythm.
    2. Learn in horse riding lessons how to sit and post.
    3. You should practice lengthening your leg in sitting trot to provide more motion absorption.
    4. The cue for an extended trot is to sit deep into the saddle and use calf pressure to encourage extension.
    5. Remember that contact with the horse’s mouth is also important because you are not trying to speed up the trot but create extension of the legs.
    6. Decide if you can sit the extended trot. It can be very uncomfortable and some horses have a more bouncy trot which makes it more difficult to sit.
    7. Posting sometimes encourages further extension by pushing with the seat on the downswing of each post.
    8. If you want to ride an extended trot make sure that you do so on the straight. Don’t try to make your horse extend on a curve it will become unbalanced and confuse the horse.
    9. You should reward your horse for an extended trot by ending with a working trot and patting his neck.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2001
    Posts
    8,542

    Default

    gls, I think you are talking about how to do a 'lengthening" there rather than a 'extended trot" but plenty of people use the terms interchangeably.

    That's fine but incorrect when using dressage terminology. Also that photo would not be the best example of an extended trot.

    Sorry if we sidetracked your thread, OP! Carry on!



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,278

    Default

    [QUOTE=SharonA;5038708]We don't do Endurance, but my horse has a trot that she pulls out on the trail in which she extends her stride and does what I call "the power float" -- those feet are coming down pretty hard and she is MOVING, but she is airborne for a noticeable time between each step. When really into it, and now she's doing it at the gallop, you will feel her whole neck just drop between her shoulder blades and her body basically turns into a ground-covering machine.

    Is the low head and neck a good use of her body, or is it a position that indicates correct or incorrect action from her hind end, do you think? It seems like she finds it very comfortable. She is much better at using her hind end than she used to be, and of course neither of us care to be in a dressage frame when out enjoying the trails, but, just want to know if this is a position that can be allowed, or if it would develop the wrong muscles. It is alot better than hollowing, I'll say that! :-)



    this is what we call her a runniing trot its where by the horse is allowed to take the bit and run so rather than you be in contrl the horse is,

    often ponies have that ability to tank, as in the same as you say power float its not a true collected extended trot, its just you rhose putting her head down and as you say powering away from you so her feet do tend to go faster and higher and harder ,

    for exsample i could very well do that with my mare at any given time whilse the rest of the ride are cantering, its s running trot not a controlled trot

    as in horse is doing it and your letting her so, when it comes to doing something
    like dressage and you want to go into canter or say show jumping and you need to go into canter to give you that extra boost over the jump then more than likely the mare will just change into a running trot and one wouldnt get any points and one would knock the jump down as not enough implusion from the hind ned or not being egaged properly with you hind end to give you the true collect extended trot



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    gls, I think you are talking about how to do a 'lengthening" there rather than a 'extended trot" but plenty of people use the terms interchangeably.

    That's fine but incorrect when using dressage terminology. Also that photo would not be the best example of an extended trot.

    Sorry if we sidetracked your thread, OP! Carry on!
    nope you havent ok
    sitting trot is to ask ahorse or pony to shorten its striding say before one goes into canter , you dont rise before you would ask to canter as you would be lengthening your stride

    collected extended trot is another gear altogether its asking the horse to extend its trot in a sitting position

    so working trot-- is a natural trot of the horse when under saddle

    collected trot -an enaged trot toward the horse hindquarters

    medium trot a more rounded engaged trot than the working trot with
    little moderately extended strides. It lies between the working and the extended trot so the horse has a tad more complusion

    rising trot a trot with lengthened strides It differs from the more advanced extended trot in that is does not require the horse to bring its weight as far back on its hindquarters

    extended trot an engaged trot with long strides, where the horse stretches its frame, lengthening the strides to the greatest degree possible. The horse has a great amount of suspension. The back is round and the horse's head just in front of the vertical


    at the end of the day if ones competing in any disipline then the basic foundations of schooling go right across the baord to include in endurance and the art of any displine is to the fitness of your horse and the condition that its in and when your competing you have to condition and prepare your horse fit for the job in hand
    Last edited by goeslikestink; Aug. 19, 2010 at 12:52 PM.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 25, 2005
    Location
    The Land of the Frozen
    Posts
    13,787

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SharonA View Post
    This is not a dressage-y extended trot in that her head and neck are not in a dressage frame -- they're lower and I betcha her head is alittle in front of the vertical and again, she is FLYING.
    "Dressage" and "frame" shouldn't be used in the same sentence, but that's probably beyond the scope of this thread.

    No big stupid WB can move like this, this fast. (what? What? Prejudice, you say? Stereotyping, you say?)
    Not sure what the intelligence of warmbloods has to do with your Ay-Rab but I think that also is beyond the scope of this thread.

    It's not round and soft so much as it is driving power with some elasticity. And, while it's not terrible, she's heavy on the forehand. I find myself throwing in half-halts. I might like to get her balanced alittle more at this pace, but I'm not going to take away all her fun by making her be uber-correct (as if that were within the realm of reality).
    A good extension should not result in a horse that is heavy on the forehand. The more you describe this power trot your horse does, the more it sounds like the horse is trying to lengthen as much as possible but doesn't have the proper muscling or training to pull it off correctly. An extension should be powerful and driving from the engine of the hindquarters, but a good extension is also balanced and results in a horse very light on the forehand.

    You should be careful about allowing the horse to rip balls to the wall down the trail in a huge power trot that she's not conditioned or trained for. You can end up with strains and sprains from overuse and improper use of joints and soft tissue.

    She is an Arab, and used to carry her head very high and travel hollow-backed, but we don't do that anymore and as she is a lady, her hind legs are not as far apart as those of the Arab in the posted link.
    Traveling lower and rounder over the topline is always a good thing. High headed and hollow are not generally very productive or safe.

    Seriously, though, I don't think she can pull off quite that much flexibility/athleticism in her hinds.
    An extended trot comes from a power-generating hindquarter. If your horse's back end is weak, then she cannot perform a true, correct extension of the trot. She may be lengthening and attempting to trot huge due to adrenaline, too much energy, not being allowed or asked to break to canter, etc. but until you develop the hindquarters, you are risking damaging your horse's skeleton and soft tissue. On a horse like that, I would feel much safer working at a medium and working trot, doing hills, and engaging in a slow fitness program before allowing the horse to do this huge trot down the trail. Trotting cavaletti is also a great way to build balance and fitness.

    But, since I know she can move like this on the trail, you know what that means for her for when we do our dressage schooling (insert evil laughter here).
    Dressage schooling is always beneficial to trail horses. Life is too short to chase my tail around a ring for endless years ad nauseum - BUT - dressage lessons, and schooling on a weekly basis can be very beneficial.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    15,278

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SharonA View Post
    Thanks, everyone! I am glad to hear that it is not some sort of evasion from using her hind end --- ie, she is not using the lowered neck and head to compensate for _not_ using her hind end.... that's what I was concerned about.

    your hands ok look here page 1 link 2

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=178116


    This is not a dressage-y extended trot in that her head and neck are not in a dressage frame -- they're lower and I betcha her head is alittle in front of the vertical and again, she is FLYING. No big stupid WB can move like this, this fast. (what? What? Prejudice, you say? Stereotyping, you say?) It's not round and soft so much as it is driving power with some elasticity. And, while it's not terrible, she's heavy on the forehand. I find myself throwing in half-halts. I might like to get her balanced alittle more at this pace, but I'm not going to take away all her fun by making her be uber-correct (as if that were within the realm of reality).

    arh, typical of the arab they have a high head carriage so not so easy to bring the nose down for some,

    read page one and re address how your doing your half halts stride
    as this bring her off the forehand as you already know but i have a funny feeling your only doing them as a sort off half understanding of what the half halt does

    so bring her back to walk and teach her it in walk to halt so she understands it more so as there no where esle to go but stop

    read page one describes how to do the half halt properly
    ok and use it in all yourt transitions,

    page 1 and liink 2 is still relevent

    She is an Arab, and used to carry her head very high and travel hollow-backed, but we don't do that anymore and as she is a lady, her hind legs are not as far apart as those of the Arab in the posted link.

    link 2 still relevent

    Seriously, though, I don't think she can pull off quite that much flexibility/athleticism in her hinds.

    she can but as the horse is headset and more than likely carrying your bodyweight into the head area cant engage her back side, as your asking with your legs but supporting your bodyweight into her head so all she can do is stick her nose in the air and run away from you

    read this link your not alone as its common problem but can be addressed if you can change the way you yourself are riding her as its rider error as the horse
    is doing what your asking


    http://www.meredithmanor.com/feature...t_evasions.asp




    But, since I know she can move like this on the trail, you know what that means for her for when we do our dressage schooling (insert evil laughter here).
    haha , but depends if you want a horse you can control and extend when you want to or you want horse that tells you when it wants to your choice

    this is what happening when i say your horse is running i have taken a paragraph out of link 2

    becuase its relevent you need to back off with your hands and learn to use an independant sseat , sit into the horse
    doesnt matter be dressage or endurance like i said schooling is schooling once you have a good foundation of equitation then you can bring that horse on and into any dispiline i do this all the time for people as in re trian there neddies

    quote
    Other horses go behind the bit by curling their neck and putting their noses to their chests to avoid the hand and bit. This is a harder evasion to correct than going above the bit. Horses commonly go behind the bit when, again, the rider’s hands are unsteady. Bits that are too large, do not fit properly, and draw reins are other contributors to the problem. If a horse is worked in a leverage bit with a chain under his chin, he is more likely to try to evade
    by going behind rather than above it.

    this is what shes doing when you get the head down and gone type thing as you describe ok
    and this is what shes doing when your riding

    Evasions take various forms. Some horses tend to go above the bit. They raise their heads high, tense their neck, tighten their back, and tense their hindquarters, often because their conformation predisposes them that way in the first place. The result is that they cannot step off correctly with their hind feet. Horses commonly evade the bit by going above it when the rider’s hands are unsteady or when there is not enough forward motion. The rider may be tentative and doesn’t allow the horse’s forward motion, the rider may not know how to use driving aids properly to send the horse forward, or the rider may not have the strength and coordination to ask the horse to move forward freely.


    as ddescribe by you as the horse has her head in the air

    rider error not the horse so up to you , like i said your choice you can change it but iam not going to lie its going to take time and work
    but depends on if you want to do something as a hobby with your horse like jumping endurance dressage etc if you want her to do a proper job
    or to be a general hack then help her out abit and learn how to ride her a lot better tahn you do, good for you, as it will be a learning curve for you and good for her as in the end you will have a far better rersult and a good team wrok and great partnership with your horse



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr. 17, 2002
    Location
    between the barn and the pond
    Posts
    14,495

    Default

    The OP is describing a powerful effort and lengthened trot, but not a balanced, off the forehand, extended trot. Not jumping in to split hairs on that point but no, at the end of the day she's motoring to be sure but not in a frame that's good for her to get away with ad nauseum. Is it a good stretchy pipe opener, sure? Good for a little bit? Sure? Ideal...well, no.



Similar Threads

  1. "Cold calling" stables for a stablehand position?
    By Gobbledigook in forum Off Course
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Aug. 20, 2011, 07:18 PM
  2. can I improve a horses trot who "wags" their head?
    By TSHEventing in forum Dressage
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Aug. 8, 2011, 04:39 PM
  3. Helmets - Knowing If Your Head is "Regular" or "Long Oval"
    By supaflyskye in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Mar. 25, 2010, 08:26 PM
  4. Continuation/Spinoff of "jumping position" thread
    By LudgerFan in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: Dec. 20, 2009, 12:24 PM
  5. How to Find an "Adult" Working Student Position
    By ksetrider in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Aug. 27, 2009, 02:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •