The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default WSC ESC Starch <Now NFC> ~ My head is spinning (Again)

    We got our hay test results back from Dairy One. I've read their site, as well as the Safergrass site. Help me with the results.

    Closest topic I found was this one. Of course, I can't search for WSC.

    So, what I've gathered (and I am on serious IR overload at this point) is that it's the NSC (ESC) and starch that is the big problem. But where our numbers go up is in the WSC. Safergrass says some IR horses seem sensitive to the WSC also, so if they are still testing high for insulin and your WSC is high, then it is a factor.

    Here are the numbers on our lowest sample (we did three fields). Oh how I wish we could feed some hay without soaking it. It's 20 degrees out for Cripe Sake!

    As Sampled
    WSC 7.0
    ESC 3.4
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.2 without WSC that's 4.2

    Dry Matter
    WSC 7.5
    ESC 3.6
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.9 without WSC that's 4.4

    So what do we do? Feed it to them dry and pull blood to find out? Keep soaking even though everything's frozen, we have a mud puddle in the barn aisle and our hands are pruning?

    The hay they had been eating before all heck broke loose tested a total of 27.3 dry matter 18.8 of which was the WSC, so I'm thinking our horses are sensitive to the WSC.
    Last edited by SmartAlex; Aug. 11, 2010 at 08:29 PM.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
    Posts
    2,481

    Default It helps if you spell out the acronym

    ESC = ether soluble carbohydrate
    WSC= water soluble carbohydrate
    NSC= non structural carbohydrate

    So yes since the WSC is a measure of simple carbs they do count and do matter.

    Do have any older hay from a later cut, with more stem and less leaf?

    Of if all else fails do know anyone with some straw for sale?
    Use the straw as a bulk filler/something to chew on and feed soy hulls or non molassed sugar beet pulp.
    Are you using a magnesium supplement? Increasing the Mg can help a lot
    I also like to increase the chromium, I find that it helps, others disagree.
    Check the copper and zinc levels in your hay/feed, they may respond to a copper /zinc supplementation as well.

    Good Luck
    Yours
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    35,208

    Default

    Straw can actually be quite high in sugars.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    The field that came back mid range was a later cut and also has been stored for a year. So even that isn't going to help short term.

    Yes, they are on Chromium and Magnesium, and we have replaced about 15% of their forage with rinsed plain beet pulp. We're just trying to find a safe hay too. We never bought hay before, and we knew the hay we bought was beautiful and sweet... which is why they were hoovering it all winter. Now we're soaking most of their hay, and giving them less than 5# a day of the "crappy" hay (which they now think is the best thing ever) that we have left over from last year.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
    Posts
    2,481

    Default There is a way to slow digestion of sugars

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    The field that came back mid range was a later cut and also has been stored for a year. So even that isn't going to help short term.

    Yes, they are on Chromium and Magnesium, and we have replaced about 15% of their forage with rinsed plain beet pulp. We're just trying to find a safe hay too. We never bought hay before, and we knew the hay we bought was beautiful and sweet... which is why they were hoovering it all winter. Now we're soaking most of their hay, and giving them less than 5# a day of the "crappy" hay (which they now think is the best thing ever) that we have left over from last year.
    And that is to add fat. Can you feed them some rice bran pellets or whole flax seed along with their hay?
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    How much are we talking? Rice Bran averages about 20% starch.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
    Posts
    2,481

    Default I mostly use flax seed,

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    How much are we talking? Rice Bran averages about 20% starch.
    I use 4- 8 oz per day per horse. I add it in straight, no grinding.
    So I'd recommend that.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 24, 2007
    Posts
    1,793

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    We got our hay test results back from Dairy One. I've read their site, as well as the Safergrass site. Help me with the results.

    Closest topic I found was this one. Of course, I can't search for WSC.

    So, what I've gathered (and I am on serious IR overload at this point) is that it's the NSC (ESC) and starch that is the big problem. But where our numbers go up is in the WSC. Safergrass says some IR horses seem sensitive to the WSC also, so if they are still testing high for insulin and your WSC is high, then it is a factor.

    Here are the numbers on our lowest sample (we did three fields). Oh how I wish we could feed some hay without soaking it. It's 20 degrees out for Cripe Sake!

    As Sampled
    WSC 7.0
    ESC 3.4
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.2 without WSC that's 4.2

    Dry Matter
    WSC 7.5
    ESC 3.6
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.9 without WSC that's 4.4

    So what do we do? Feed it to them dry and pull blood to find out? Keep soaking even though everything's frozen, we have a mud puddle in the barn aisle and our hands are pruning?

    The hay they had been eating before all heck broke loose tested a total of 27.3 dry matter 18.8 of which was the WSC, so I'm thinking our horses are sensitive to the WSC.
    The numbers you have posted......are really low.......wish I could get hay that low........not need to soak with those numbers......anything under 10 to 12% is good depending on the metabolic problem your horse has.

    Dalemma



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Guanajuato, GTO, Mexico
    Posts
    2,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post

    As Sampled
    WSC 7.0
    ESC 3.4
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.2 without WSC that's 4.2
    You don't add them all together. ESC is a subset of WSC. You only add WSC + starch to get NSC. These are nice, low numbers. As long as your horses is stable, should be fine without soaking.
    Katy



  10. #10

    Default

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post

    As Sampled
    WSC 7.0
    ESC 3.4
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.2 without WSC that's 4.2
    Dry Matter
    WSC 7.5
    ESC 3.6
    Starch .8
    Total is 11.9 without WSC that's 4.4
    So what do we do?
    nothing...your total is only about 8%

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    Thanks guys! I was afraid I was missing something in the theory of all this. My mother will be so relieved. She's on the front lines of this, and is finding hayseed on her pillow at night. I just sit here at my office job and try to sort out the information. I've studied and printed articles until my head is full. I think she and I will be celebrating with adult beverages today.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
    Posts
    2,481

    Default this is a question I have long had

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Watts View Post
    You don't add them all together. ESC is a subset of WSC. You only add WSC + starch to get NSC. These are nice, low numbers. As long as your horses is stable, should be fine without soaking.
    Katy
    But have never had a good answer.
    Katy; why do they test for
    ESC (Ether soluble carbohydrates) and report it in addition to WSC (water soluble carbohydrates) since ESC is a sub group of WSC.
    And then why do some folk say that NSC = ESC + Starch. when logic says it should be WSC + starch.

    Enquiring minds and all that.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Guanajuato, GTO, Mexico
    Posts
    2,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Melyni View Post
    But have never had a good answer.
    Katy; why do they test for
    ESC (Ether soluble carbohydrates) and report it in addition to WSC (water soluble carbohydrates) since ESC is a sub group of WSC.
    And then why do some folk say that NSC = ESC + Starch. when logic says it should be WSC + starch.
    Some people think that fructan doesn’t matter. So they would rather use ESC, which doesn’t contain the long chain fructan. My question to them: so all those calories don’t matter? I’ve seen hay with 12 % difference between WSC and ESC. Of course it matters to a horse that needs calories restricted. Also some new information that fructose (but not glucose) worsens IR in horses after 2 weeks (Ray Goer, AAEP laminitis workshop) , and fructose is intermediary fermentation product of fructan fermentation, at least in silage, but enough to cause me to wonder.

    What urks me is that some have the audacity to change the definition of nonstructural carbs, like they have some power over what carbs are found in the nonstructural part of a plant cell. Geeze, it means something after all. I suggest they call it sugar + starch if they want, but lets not continue to cause confusion by changing definitions to suit their current theory. A lot of people incorrectly interchange the terms NFC and NSC, and in this day of Wikipedia, I guess if enough people make the same error, it becomes true.

    The epistemology of horse knowledge continues to mystify me.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    Just got this year's sample results back from Dairy One. My mother sent it in, and she got a different analysis package than I chose last time. This one has NFC (Non Fiber Carb) on it, which the last one did not. Does THAT have to be figured into the starch and sugars for total?

    WSC 8.1 %
    ESC 5.3 %
    Starch 2.8 %
    NFC 16.6 %

    So, is my sugar/carb percentage 10.9% 16.2% or 32.8%?
    See, I made it multiple choice so it's easier

    Yes, Katy, I read the NFC info on your site, but I still need clarification.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Guanajuato, GTO, Mexico
    Posts
    2,446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    WSC 8.1 %
    ESC 5.3 %
    Starch 2.8 %
    Ignore NFC. NSC = WSC + starch. Both WSC and ESC can be considered 'sugar'. Ask your horse which definition matters.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 30, 2001
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    2,461

    Default

    I asked Mr. Onthebit this question and this was his answer:

    Insofar as it goes, I was right about WSC being roughly equal to soluble sugar content of forages.

    However, in equine diets, ESC (which is a subset of WSC) + Starch is used to get a better feel for glycemic response, which is what is important in an IR horse. "High" ESC + Starch numbers are more likely to produce a glycemic response than low ESC+Starch. The problem is that nobody can yet define what constitutes "low" vs. "high" numbers in equine forages.

    If I were looking at her hay sample and measuring ESC+Starch from a ruminant perspective, I'd call it very low, but I'd sure like to look at the whole hay test to see what ADF and NDF numbers look like so that I could qualify what I'm seeing.

    See below for the best detailed explanation of starches/sugars/etc. that I ran across. Interestingly, much of the commentary is provided by Paul Sirois, the owner of Dairy One Labs.

    (Reprinted with permission from www.TheHorse.com to get thousands of in-depthveterinarian-approved horse health articles and free health e-newsletters

    Changing Carbohydrate Evaluations inAnimal Diets by: Christy West, TheHorse.com

    Nutritionists are doing away with "non-structural carbohydrates" in favor of more specific measures. If you own a horse with laminitis or a metabolic problem such as insulin resistance or Cushing's disease, chances are you've heard recommendations to minimize his intake of non-structural carbohydrates (NSC). However, many nutritionists and feed analysts are now saying that NSC isn't the best measure to evaluate when you're counting a horse's carbs. One major reason is significant variation in the way different laboratories measure NSC components and calculate its value. Interpreting research and making dietary recommendations are impossible when feeds are not analyzed consistently.

    "I do not use NSC anymore because it has different meanings to different people,"comments Laurie Lawrence, PhD, professor of equine nutrition at the University of Kentucky and chair of the committee that recently revised the National Research Council's publication Nutrient Requirements of Horses. The other reason--probably the biggest one for horse owners--is the fact that NSC doesn't give you a complete picture of the types of carbohydrates in a feed or forage that can affect your horse's condition (more on this shortly). "We need to do a better job of understanding carbohydrate components and balancing rations based on them, because all carbs are not created equal," states Paul Sirois, manager of Dairy One/Equi-analytical Forage Analysis Laboratories in Ithaca, N.Y., and one of the leaders of the movement away from NSC. "NSC was a good place to start, but we can do better now." Following extensive collaboration between feed analysts, nutritionists for multiple species, nutrition researchers, and feed industry regulators, the NSC value will be progressively dropped from many laboratory analyses, research methodologies, and feeding guidelines across multiple animal species. In fact, Dairy One/Equi-analytical has already dropped NSC from its reports, effective April 1

    What NSC Doesn't Tell You

    The group of carbohydrates lumped under the NSC label includes nearly all the non-fiber carbohydrates—those that come from plant cell contents rather than tough, fibrous cell walls. They are generally more easily digestible and yield more energy to the horse than the fiber carbohydrates, but they're not all digested in the same part of the horse's gastrointestinal tract or by the same process. Thus, they affect a horse's blood sugar and gastrointestinal health differently, and this is why it's important that they be evaluated separately.

    Sirois explains: "Let's say one hay sample has 5% simple sugars+starch and 10% fructan, with an NSC value of 15%. And you have another with 10% simple sugars+starch and 5% fructan that is also 15% NSC. They're not the same hay even though they have the same NSC value. The one that's 10% simple sugars+starch might be more of a problem for the insulin-resistant horse (because simple sugars and starch, which are primarily digested in the small intestine, cause a greater glycemic or blood sugar response than fructans). The hay that's 10% fructan could be more of a problem for a laminitic horse." primarily digested in the large intestine; large doses can upset the microbial population there, resulting in colic and/or laminitis. Some fructans are in fact used at high doses to induce laminitis in some research situations. "If you're evaluating a horse's ration based only on NSC, you're not getting the whole picture," he summarizes.

    So What Do We Use?

    Instead of looking at NSC, nutritionists are recommending that we evaluate water-soluble carbohydrates, ethanol-soluble carbohydrates, and starch. None of these measures are new, and each describes carbohydrates that affect the horse differently based on how they're digested. Water-soluble carbohydrates (WSC)—These include carbohydrates that are extracted from a sample by dissolving them in water. Simple sugars and fructans make up this measure, which is simply termed "sugar" on some analyses. Interpreting and using this value depends on the proportions of sugars and fructans in the sample; simple sugars are digested and absorbed in the small intestine and have a significant impact on blood sugar (glycemic response), while fructans are fermented in the large intestine and induce a much smaller response. However, when eaten in large amounts, some fructans have been shown to cause laminitis due to disruption of the bacterial population in the large intestine. Fructans are rarely analyzed separately from other WSC. Ethanol-soluble carbohydrates (ESC)—These carbohydrates are soluble in 80% ethanol; they are a subset of WSC that is primarily digestible in the small intestine and includes much fewer fructans. As such, this fraction is generally used to evaluate one set of carbohydrates in a feed that will induce a high glycemic response. Depending upon the lab doing the analysis, WSC and ESC may both be reported as “sugar." This has caused a lot of the confusion in the industry, notes Sirois. "At Dairy One/Equi-analytical, we no longer report 'sugar,' " he adds. "Carbs are correctly identified as either WSC or ESC." Starch—Made up of many glucose molecules, the starches are mostly broken down to single glucose molecules. Thus, they also induce a high glycemic response. Historically, NSC values have been calculated by adding starch to either WSC or ESC.

    Interpreting the "New" Numbers

    Lawrence provides guidance on using WSC, ESC, and starch values to plan equine diets: "If the values for starch and ESC are low, there will be little glucose available to be absorbed from the small intestine." This would mean a low glycemic response, which is good for insulin-resistant horses or others that can't handle large swings in blood sugar levels. "If the WSC and starch values are low, there should be only a small amount of material reaching the large intestine that will be rapidly fermented," she adds. "Thus low starch low WSC should mean less opportunity for large intestinal disturbances." This feed would be good for a laminitic horse, particularly one whose disease was initiated by diet-related colic. But what numbers are "low" for these carb values and what numbers are "high?"

    "Lots of people have opinions on that, but there is a lack of good data to support a specific number," says Lawrence. Hopefully, standardizing the way researchers and nutritionists evaluate carbs will provide us with research we all know how to interpret, so we can get these numbers in the future. An equine nutritionist can help you sort through the carbohydrate types to plan a diet with carbohydrate levels that are most suitable for your horse. "Carbohydrate analysis is complicated because there are so many different compounds produced by plants," she comments. "Most of us think of starch and cellulose as the main carbohydrates in plants, which they are in many feed ingredients. But as we use new and different ingredients and we look closely at the plant in different growth stages, it becomes clear that there are many, many other carbohydrates that we need to be aware of." The recently released revision of the Nutrient Requirements of Horses discusses metabolism and analysis of the various carbohydrate types and measures, including NSC, but does not recommend using NSC to evaluate whether a feed is suitable for a horse's diet. "The publication recognizes that diets low in starch and sugars are helpful in managing horses with certain disorders, such as polysaccharide storage myopathy, and that high levels of dietary starch may affect gastrointesinal function, but it does not include carbohydrate recommendations for most categories of horses," notes Lawrence. Consistent analysis methods should help researchers develop these recommendations in the future.

    Regulatory Implications Minimal

    You won't see any updated regulations or laws on animal feed carbohydrates for some time, but the industry is working on it. Richard Ten Eyck is the Oregon Department of Agriculture Feed Specialist and chair of the Carbohydrate Working Group of the Feed Labeling Committee for the Association of Animal Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). He says that while his group intends to present carbohydrate fraction terminology and labeling guidelines for discussion at the organization's August meeting, he doesn't expect them to appear in the AAFCO Official Publication until at least 2009. "After that, it would take a period of time for the industry and states to adopt them (if they even choose to; AAFCO develops advisory guidelines but has no regulatory authority)," he notes. "It's years away from anything possibly becoming law." Removing NSC from AAFCO publications isn't an issue; he says that carbohydrate estimation never was included in the guidelines. There are already feeds/forage products being marketed as "low-carb" or "low-NSC." Some of them are in Ten Eyck's state of Oregon, which is one of very few states with any carbohydrate guidelines for feed labels (these are based on NSC content and can be seen at www.oregon.gov/ODA/AHID/commercial_feed/low_nsc605.pdf. One might wonder: How will this shift in carbohydrate evaluation affect labeling and marketing of those feeds? "On a national level, you won't see a definition of what low-carb or low-sugar feed is," he commented. "Low compared to what? In Oregon, we picked a number for our guidelines, but you probably won't see anything like that nationally (at least not without more research). We will probably let our guideline stand until the AAFCO revision comes out." But he notes that feed companies can already include on labels values for NSC, WSC, ESC, or anything else they can measure and guarantee.

    Take-Home Message

    It's been proposed that carbohydrates be classified based on their digestion method and nutritional effects on animals rather than by analytical method (i.e., ethanol or water extraction), as they are now. Unfortunately, analytical methods are not yet available to give us this information, so we must continue to classify carbohydrate groups based on the methods we can currently use to analyze them. We just need to pick the right carb measures so we can choose feeds based on their effects on the horse. “Moving away from NSC is a step in the right direction,” Sirois comments." A lot of people sample multiple hays just for that, to see which one has the lowest value, then do a full nutrient analysis on their selection. (NSC) was a good place to start, but we need to move away from that mindset and replace it with the evaluation of more specific carbohydrate types."

    Carbohydrate Analysis Overview

    If it seems like you need a graduate degree to make sense of the many types of carbohydrates, don't worry—we've put together a guide to the carbohydrate types you're most likely to see on a feed/forage analysis report. We'll give you the carbohydrate name, description, and nutritional significance for horses: ]NDF (neutral detergent fiber) Total plant cell wall carbohydrates, including ADF (see below) and hemicellulose; often considered an indicator of forage quality and intake potential (lower NDF=less hard-to-digest fiber=higher "quality," higher intake).

    ADF (acid detergent fiber) Less digestible carbohydrates in plant cell walls, including cellulose and lignin ; higher ADF=lower digestibility.

    NFC (non-fiber carbohydrates) A calculated estimate of carbohydrates composed of starch, simple sugars, fructan, soluble fiber, and fermentation acids; calculation may vary, but generally equals 100% minus (CP+NDF+Fat+Ash). A rough estimate of carbohydrate value (high NFC generally indicates more digestible carbohydrates than indigestible fiber types).

    NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) Intended to describe easily digestible carbohydrate components of a feed more specifically than those in NFC; usually calculated as WSC+starch or ESC+starch. Questionable because of varying analysis methods and results.

    WSC (water-soluble carbohydrates) Carbohydrates solubilized and extracted with water, including simple sugars and fructans (see below); sometimes called "sugar" on analysis reports. Interpretation of WSC is dependent upon the relative proportions of simple sugars and fructan as they are metabolized at different sites in the gastrointestinal tract. High WSC might indicate high fructan levels in grasses or high simple sugars in nongrass forages and grains.

    Fructans
    Carbohydrate compound made up of many fructose molecules (complex sugar); fermented and digested primarily in the large intestine. Occasionally analyzed separately from WSC. Present in primarily grass forages; one type is used at high doses in many laboratories to induce laminitis.

    ESC
    (ethanol-soluble carbohydrates) Carbohydrates that dissolve in 80% ethanol solution; these carbohydrates are a subset of WSC that are primarily digested in the small intestine and give a true glycemic (blood sugar) response. However, some fructans can be included in this fraction. High ESC generally means a feed will generate a high glycemic response (unless there is a high level of fructans in this fraction). Might be helpful for hardworking horses that need lots of energy, not so good for horses that are sensitive to large blood sugar changes (i.e., insulin-resistant horses). However, low ESC does not necessarily mean the feed will have a low glycemic response, because starch could keep it high.

    Starch
    A polysaccharide composed of many linked glucose molecules found mainly in grains; mostly digested in the small intestine, where they are broken down and absorbed as glucose (simple sugar). Some starches are resistant to small intestine digestion and are fermented in the large intestine; a typical analysis does not differentiate between the two types. Low starch content generally means little glucose will be absorbed in the small intestine (low glycemic response). This is good for horses that can't handle large blood sugar changes (i.e., insulin-resistant horses). High starch generally means a high glycemic response

    Copyright © 2007 BLOOD-HORSE PUBLICATIONS. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without written permission of BLOOD-HORSE PUBLICATIONS is prohibited. THE HORSE, THE HORSE logo, THEHORSE.COM and THEHORSE.COM logo are trademarks of BLOOD-HORSE PUBLICATIONS



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 16, 2003
    Location
    Staunton, VA, USA
    Posts
    2,481

    Default So are you confused enough yet?

    Bottom line is I don't think that your hay is high enough to cause a problem, however your horse might not agree.
    So if you feed it and he gets a digital pulse and or his neck crest hardens then it does have too high a glycemic response FOR THAT HORSE, though it might be perfectly fine for another horse.

    You have to go by the horse, feed and monitor the horse carefully and see.

    Hope this helps
    YOUrs
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
    Location
    Guanajuato, GTO, Mexico
    Posts
    2,446

    Default

    Regardless of glycemic response, fructan is a dense source of calories. So how can we ignore WSC in a syndrome that is driven by obesity?

    That article quoted is quite old. New information reported briefly at the AAEP Laminitis researcher workshop by Dr. Geor suggesting that fructose may be worse for IR horses than glucose. And no it's not published yet.

    I agree with Melyni. The individual horse is the best place to evaluate what is best. Energy metabolism is extremely complex. We cannot assume that every horse has the same enzyme or receptor broken.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2007
    Location
    Beside Myself ~ Western NY
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    Thanks guys. Who knew you needed to be so smart to obsess over horse diets. It looks like this hay won't have to be soaked. Both horses are currently very stable, non-obese and feeling fine as frog hair. A little too fine some day . We'll see how they adjust to this hay and of course they will be monitored. We'll probably do an insulin test this autumn to double check the effect of this hay. I'm more concerned with my mother's laminitic retired horse than I am my young, fit horse who has never shown any signs of founder or sore feet.

    Mom says she just doesn't know what she'll do with her time this winter if she doesn't have to soak hay. I'm looking forward to getting my caveletti back since they are the legs of the hay soaking center. The beef cows will be so happy to enjoy the left over high sugar hay this fall.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug. 24, 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    59

    Default

    You may want to wait until spring for the insulin & glucose test. If I have the "correct" information, levels tend to spike in the fall and give an inaccurate reading, "seasonal rise."



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Nov. 26, 2011, 09:30 PM
  2. Head Is Spinning, or first hay analysis
    By Personal Champ in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: Nov. 4, 2010, 08:48 PM
  3. My head is spinning looking at Jumper Prize Lists.
    By S4zeus in forum Hunter/Jumper
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Nov. 24, 2009, 03:06 PM
  4. Mystery Lameness - Comes and Goes... My Head is SPINNING!
    By LuvMyDressageQH in forum Off Course
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: Apr. 17, 2009, 01:34 PM
  5. Mystery Lameness - Comes and Goes... My Head is SPINNING!
    By LuvMyDressageQH in forum Horse Care
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Apr. 17, 2009, 03:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness