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  1. #1
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    Default Opinions on a foal

    What do you think of this foal?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ogtu80BOg

    A bit of background information is that his dam is 17 years old, hunted over 5'6" hedges for several years and then competed to PSG in dressage, schooling some of the GP moves. Sire is Silvermoon the Trakehner who has sired GP dressage horses and eventers.

    Is the foal suitable for Dressage? Eventing? Something else?

    If you were going to breed with this mare what sort of foal would you try to breed from her? She is Irish Draught x TB with jumping lines.



  2. #2
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    Default

    What are your opinions on it?
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  3. #3
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    Hmmm. I think he moves more like an eventer than a dressage horse although his movement is an improvement on his dam. But he should have high trainability and soundness (he is so much like his dam temperament-wise it's astonishing) so should be able to be trained to the upper levels in dressage.

    I bred him for myself as a dressage horse and I'm pleased with him. Maybe a bit more knee action would have been good but I can cope without it. I'm interested in what other people think. I'm guessing dressage oriented people will think "not enough movement" but I'm not sure. So thought I'd ask! I'm also wondering what American hunter movement is and whether he's got it? We don't have those classes over here so I don't know much about them and I'm curious. And if we have any eventers on the board I'd like to hear what you think too.

    Its possible I may have to sell him next year if the mare has a filly and I'm not sure which market would be the right one for him. Hopefully I'll be able to keep him but its not certain.



  4. #4
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    Aug. 2, 2009
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    What a cutie? Is he in England?
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  5. #5
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    Jun. 11, 2007
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    Everyone's foals this year have been drool worthy. But the first time I saw this guy's face I just melted.

    As VirginiaBred said, what do YOU think of him?

    You have suggested that he might have high trainability. In any discipline, that has got to be a huge plus. Then, are your goals top of the league or to learn and have fun? I don't think a world beater in any discipline is needed for that.

    Is it too early to tell his best venue? I don't know. The fact that mama is an accomplished mare speaks for his potential.

    But if you have to sell him, I think that trainability, if it continues to come through, will be his biggest asset.



  6. #6
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    Oct. 6, 2003
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    Default

    Interesting that you see him as an eventing prospect, not sure I have ever looked a horse and thought that, but I don't think I was looking for it. Frankly, I think he is a dressage prospect, more reach than his dam and certainly not the "daisy cutter" hunter mover, you even said more knee-hunter riders don't want that, they want flat knees with no action.

    Now, that said, I have lots of hunter people contact me and ask my if my dressage bred youngsters could do the hunters. My answer is always, you come and see him and tell me what you think. Hunters say they don't want knee but ever since they started bringing warmbloods into the mix, they have it. When they were only riding TB, I got it, now I don't know what they want anymore.

    He is very cute, surprised he is chestnut-will he turn gray?



  7. #7
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    MCarver yes he is in england. The thought behind the breeding was to breed a horse with the potential to train to GP in dressage with a temperament suitable for an amateur but not to kill the mare's jump. So far i'm pleased with the foal. As far as you can tell with a foal he has a similar outlook on life to his dam and learns quickly. The reason I wanted to preserve the jump was because the breeding is anything but fashionable and starting with my mare's paces it was massively unlikely i'd get a huge mover no matter who I put her to. So I chose a stallion with a record for producing GP horses, indicating good soundness and good trainability. Since you can never be sure if you can keep a horse life long and I doubted dressage people would give him a second glance until he's under saddle I also chose the stallion with an eye on marketing him as an eventer. Eventing is the biggest market in the UK and this foal genuinely should have the ability to do it well. He's a twist on the traditional mix of 1/4 ID 3/4 TB by a stallion who has sired an advanced eventer. What is worrying me is there have been over 300 views of this thread and very few replies. Why?



  8. #8
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    Not a dressage expert by any means but when I viewed I immediately saw dressage stamped all over him. He's built that way and moves that way (if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck then it must be a duck).

    He's very nice. And mama ain't no slouch!!!
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver, Equine Insurance Specialist



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    What is worrying me is there have been over 300 views of this thread and very few replies. Why?
    I suspect that a lot of people are like me - loved watching the video but don't consider myself expert enough to offer an answer to your question. But if it helps - he is a very handsome young man and very athletic. His ma is extremely nice as well. Well done!



  10. #10
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    I think he's going to be able to do whatever you want with him. Very pretty trot and very nice canter too. He certainly looks to have enough movement to be a dressage horse. In any case, athleticism is just as important as big gaits when you get down to it, and he looks balanced and athletic.



  11. #11
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    If either of them end up in my barn I would not mind at all! He is drool worthy and flashy, interested to know if he is going to gray out or stay that lovely chestnut. I have no idea if he could do anything as I am just not experienced enough to tell you and honestly to me all foals pretty much move the same. Mamma, now she screams dressage and oh I can jump too!
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  12. #12
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    Aug. 5, 2009
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    I too, am no expert, but I agree he seems very dressagey to me. :-) I saw his newborn pictures, and LOVE this little one. He is such a great improvement on his dam, who is no slouch herself.

    I also agree temperament will be his biggest asset if you have to sell him. There are plenty of nice movers out there, and especially as a gelding, their temperament is so important in making them stand out.

    You rebred his mom for a full sibling?
    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." *Thomas Edison
    A champion is a dreamer that refused to give up!!



  13. #13
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    I think your initial assessment may be correct. Athletic enough for eventing , not enough movement for GP dressage , and I don't think he has enough power in the canter to be considered a top jumping prospect. He looks like he's put together well and is very attractive. Nice foal.....just my opinion.



  14. #14
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    I would aim this guy to an eventing career. He would certainly do (more than just "do") for an amateur type dressage horse but I'll bet he would make a very nice eventer.

    He does not have "top" dressage movement but he is a nice mover (impt for modern dressage) and his bloodlines and the mare's influence suggest he would most definitely have an eventing career.

    JMO. Nice colt.
    I love cooking with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    I think your initial assessment may be correct. Athletic enough for eventing , not enough movement for GP dressage , and I don't think he has enough power in the canter to be considered a top jumping prospect. He looks like he's put together well and is very attractive. Nice foal.....just my opinion.
    This interests me. Do you (or anyone) have video of a young foal showing enough canter power for GP jumping? I'd like to see it for comparison and reference.

    I think he looks like a nice all-arounder! He doesn't "scream" dressage to me, but looks very capable (I do not profess to have the eye to pick out GP dressage foals, btw, although I do think sometimes the trot gets overrated in young horses).
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    This interests me. Do you (or anyone) have video of a young foal showing enough canter power for GP jumping? I'd like to see it for comparison and reference.

    I think he looks like a nice all-arounder! He doesn't "scream" dressage to me, but looks very capable (I do not profess to have the eye to pick out GP dressage foals, btw, although I do think sometimes the trot gets overrated in young horses).
    Here is a link to 3 of my foals born 3 years ago. The first two I would consider to have top canters with much power. The third baby.......needs a little more and steps very similar to the aforementioned colt.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZMDgFAOF4A



  17. #17
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    Sorry for being slow to get back to this thread and many thanks for your comments. To everyone who has asked if he will stay chestnut the answer is yes. He was born with orange eyeliner (greys tend to have black) and he's shedding out bright ginger. Since both parents are heterozygous for grey there was a 25% chance of him not being grey. The chestnut surprised me though as Mum was bay when she was his age.

    I'm quite surprised how many replies have said that they can see him as a dressage prospect. I'm also rather pleased. I've competed in dressage for 8 years and gone through the grades to PSG on his Mum. Something I noticed is that once you get past the lower levels most of the horses out competing are not big movers. What happens to the big moving jaw dropping young horses you see in the novice classes I'm really not sure but the "ordinary" horses make up the majority once you get to Medium (3rd) and beyond. His Mum generally got 7 for her paces which is good enough to win a class if the rest of your work is the same standard. I look at this foal's paces and see an improvement on his dam and also lots that I can work with. What I was worried about is that he would be seen as not flashy enough for dressage. I know his paces aren't huge although the rock hard ground isn't helping him show himself off. His mum is slightly footsore in the video, she's holding back in those trots and not showing what her extensions are really like. So maybe he has got more in the tank that I won't see until he's on soft going?

    What is rather sweet is that I was on my own when I did the video and was effectively free lungeing the mare. If you watch her she's got her inside ear fixed on me and is waiting for her next instruction. Which is why she's trotting away from her baby a few times, she's doing what I'm asking her to do. Normally she'd never move away from him in a pace faster than a walk. I think it's why he looks a bit puzzled a couple of times too. He's wondering what is going on.

    And I'm chuffed that you think that he looks as if he could be a good event prospect. He is 3/4 blood and has strong jumping lines on both sides of his pedigree so if he's brave enough, sound enough and can keep his head when racehorse fit then he could do well. There are a lot of "if"s though. A top event horse is just as special as a top GP dressage or show jumper. The big stumbling blocks tend to be getting the balance between unquestioning bravery to take on the fences that are designed to be frightening and to take over if the rider has made a mistake but to also have the obedience needed to let the rider balance them up quickly during the technical sections and also to stay soft and supple during the dressage when they are so fit they are jumping out of their skins.

    I really hope I'll be able to keep him because I'm dying to know what he's like to ride.

    Bayhawk your foals are lovely and I can see what you mean about them having powerful canters. I'm not sure I agree that all horses with a big jump have to canter that way though. I had a mare a few years ago who was half Trakehner and quite lightweight and elegant. I rode her over 5'6" and she cleared it as if it was a cavaletti. She also cleared 7' without trying very hard. She was a completely different stamp of horse to yours but had every bit of scope you could ever wish for. I do agree with you that this foal is highly unlikely to have a massive jump. He's probably got the same amount of scope as his mum which would be in the 5'6"-6' range. Not enough to be a serious show jumper. I do wonder what I'd get if I put the mare to an out and out jumping stallion but have wimped out because I don't know enough about warmblood jumping lines and soundness/ temperament and also I don't jump these days so if the jump bred foal needed to be produced I couldn't do it. Have you (Bayhawk) loose jumped those youngsters yet? I see they are about 3 years old now. Is their ability over fences the same as it appeared from looking at their canters?



  18. #18
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    Default canter

    For me I see a foal who is so comfortable at the canter that there is no need to trot "BIG". He is not afraid and he is not "acting" afraid for the fun of it...he is not a Lord of Drama. What I see is an Irish Draught brain...Mom's brain. You should be happy he shows this much trot as my Irish Draught foals often never trot...they have 10 feet to go they canter.

    Right now you can't rule anything out. His gaits are good enough for dressage...I would worry more about his lack of the "drama" gene that any insufficiency in the walk, trot, or canter. The three gaits are there. They are straight and true and rhythmical, he uses his back and loin every step. The high reactivity is something that is very much part of the creme de la creme of the upper level horses today. THAT is why they do the "curl" to settle the heeby geebies...this colt isn't going to have heeby geebies. The reactivity you have will be there because you expect responsiveness from the first moment you work him and that is all he knows. The reactivity won't be there because he is hot and reactive.

    Now you have to decide if the reactivity is something you will miss. You may want to get to Grand Prix but you don't want to have to work him down every day because he jumps at your touch because he is wired...perhaps you would rather he jumps from your touch because you wired him to respond to a light touch...that is training. Many people who train calm smart horses wait for the HORSE to provide the forward spark and then they say they didn;t have what it takes to move up...that is wrong...the spark is training to lightness.

    He is built more square than his dam so you got the longer leg you wanted. He is freer in the shoulder than your mare shows though that is not real free and may account for the less fancy trot but I contend the better gait is there. His canter is very good and he always knows where his feet are so his balance is rock solid, he is always over his legs...that is where the 5th leg comes from.

    He is certainly a dressage horse...is he an eventer...can he jump...too soon to tell. PatO



  19. #19
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    I'm going to give you my meager two cents worth, but I think he moves like a hunter, with a nice light spring to his step and little knee action. A seemless cadence of stride at the trot, though he could maybe use a little more reach from the shoulder. But then again, he seemed pretty reserved during the whole video. A couple *great* examples of hunter stallions and hack winners would be Apiro and Redwine. Your boy doesn't really strike me as a dressage propect. Lovely walk too.

    And he's got a really nice little apple bum on him!!

    But I vote hunter.
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  20. #20
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    Thank you StolenSilver and I agree that they don't have to always exhibit these type of canters to be top jumping prospects but this is what I like to see in a young jumper foal. The power has to start from the rear and work up through the back. Both foals exhibit a powerful canter and good elasticity up thru the topline.

    Yes , I have freejumped them and they appear to be very talented , especially the Roller Coaster / Cassini II.......he is very elastic and powerful thru the chute.



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