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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2001
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    NC
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    4,311

    Default Opinions on buying leased pony

    I had a boarder who lost interest. I had been doing a partial lease on the pony for lessons. I then took over all expenses and rarely heard from the owners. I pay all vet/farrier. Everything for this guy. This has been for about 4 years.
    So now I get an email, they want me to buy him, as the girl will never ride again.
    At first I thought, ok let me think of a price. But now I think, I am paying for a pony I have paid everything for for the last four years? Hmmm.
    If they will to sell him to someone else, I would expect a hefty percentage.
    Many times in the first couple of years, this guy was not making his expenses, much less any profit. I have bought blankets, halters, etc for him as needed, as if he was mine.
    I really feel they should just let me have him at this point.
    So, opnions?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2010
    Location
    San Diego, CA
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    2,084

    Default

    Touchy one on this. As the owner I would have given you the pony since you really do own it in everything but name. Ask the owners how much they want for said pony and go from there.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2003
    Posts
    3,589

    Default

    That's a tough one. With hindsight, 4 years ago you should have started insisting that they pay for the expenses, but you didn't. If they sell the horse they probably don't owe you a penny unless you had something in writing. I think I would nicely write back, offering them some minimal amount for the pony $100? and noting out all the expenses that you have incurred on the pony over the last 4 years.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun. 12, 2007
    Location
    Westchester County, NY
    Posts
    5,542

    Default

    It seems to me like you were free leasing the pony. It started out as a partial lease, and became a full free lease. You never returned the pony, or asked them to split expenses and resume the partial arrangement- so thats the way it stayed.

    It is perfectly normal to pay all expenses on a lease horse, including supplies when needed. It's none of their business whether or not you were making any money off the pony- as a lease, you were free to return the pony to them if it wasn't working for you anymore. I don't see any justification for assuming they should give you the pony.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2010
    Location
    West Michigan
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    447

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    It seems to me like you were free leasing the pony. It started out as a partial lease, and became a full free lease. You never returned the pony, or asked them to split expenses and resume the partial arrangement- so thats the way it stayed.

    It is perfectly normal to pay all expenses on a lease horse, including supplies when needed. It's none of their business whether or not you were making any money off the pony- as a lease, you were free to return the pony to them if it wasn't working for you anymore. I don't see any justification for assuming they should give you the pony.
    Yup.... it stinks, but you really have no right to just have the pony. I would hope they would make you a very fair deal considering you have been caring for the pony all this time, but really, they don't HAVE to - they can offer it to you for fair CURRENT market value or sell it on the market - unless you have something in writing, your out of luck.

    Hope it works out for you....
    Concordia means "Harmony" in Latin.
    Full Time Dressage Addict



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep. 5, 2005
    Location
    Mass.
    Posts
    6,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    It seems to me like you were free leasing the pony. It started out as a partial lease, and became a full free lease. You never returned the pony, or asked them to split expenses and resume the partial arrangement- so thats the way it stayed.

    It is perfectly normal to pay all expenses on a lease horse, including supplies when needed. It's none of their business whether or not you were making any money off the pony- as a lease, you were free to return the pony to them if it wasn't working for you anymore. I don't see any justification for assuming they should give you the pony.
    Yup. They are perfectly within their rights to ask for a fair market price from you, or anyone else.
    I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 26, 2006
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shea'smom View Post
    I had a boarder who lost interest. I had been doing a partial lease on the pony for lessons. I then took over all expenses and rarely heard from the owners. I pay all vet/farrier. Everything for this guy. This has been for about 4 years.
    So now I get an email, they want me to buy him, as the girl will never ride again.
    At first I thought, ok let me think of a price. But now I think, I am paying for a pony I have paid everything for for the last four years? Hmmm.
    If they will to sell him to someone else, I would expect a hefty percentage.
    Many times in the first couple of years, this guy was not making his expenses, much less any profit. I have bought blankets, halters, etc for him as needed, as if he was mine.
    I really feel they should just let me have him at this point.
    So, opnions?
    Quote Originally Posted by joiedevie99 View Post
    It seems to me like you were free leasing the pony. It started out as a partial lease, and became a full free lease. You never returned the pony, or asked them to split expenses and resume the partial arrangement- so thats the way it stayed.

    It is perfectly normal to pay all expenses on a lease horse, including supplies when needed. It's none of their business whether or not you were making any money off the pony- as a lease, you were free to return the pony to them if it wasn't working for you anymore. I don't see any justification for assuming they should give you the pony.
    What she said. This is the sort of thing that needs to get ironed out right away. If the pony wasn't making you profit -- and that was your stipulation -- than you should have stopped paying for it and given the responsibility back to the owners. Now it's 4 years later, you've been using the pony in lessons and paying its expenses. It would be NICE if the owners give him to you, but they don't have to.

    I would do as another poster suggests and offer a nominal amount and see what they say. It may be worth it to the to not have to worry about it any more.

    What would you guess the value of the pony is on the open market? Are the owners thinking that they have a cash cow on their hands all of the sudden?
    Quote Originally Posted by tidy rabbit View Post
    Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2008
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    946

    Default

    Tell them: "I can only pay you $XXX for pony because he just isn't earning his keep anymore but I've supported him for 4 years anyway; I understand if you'd like to put him on the market to get more. However, I'm going to have to terminate our lease agreement while you market him and you'll have to start paying his board, farrier and vet bills."

    I bet they agree to take whatever you offer them...it doesn't sound like they're going to want to deal with the expense and hassle of trying to find a buyer.
    JB-Infinity Farm
    www.infinitehorses.com



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    5,490

    Default

    Spotmenow has an angle I like. That sounds the best - if you don't like their deal, they have to take the horse back right away and assume all expenses as of today. I wouldn't worry about any kind of "30 day notice" for quitting right away; they broke the lease when they stopped the half lease and stopped being resonsible for their part of the horse. That's what I would do.
    Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    14,506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spotmenow View Post
    Tell them: "I can only pay you $XXX for pony because he just isn't earning his keep anymore but I've supported him for 4 years anyway; I understand if you'd like to put him on the market to get more. However, I'm going to have to terminate our lease agreement while you market him and you'll have to start paying his board, farrier and vet bills."

    I bet they agree to take whatever you offer them...it doesn't sound like they're going to want to deal with the expense and hassle of trying to find a buyer.
    Yes, this is good advice. Who the he!! wants to re-up with a pony they ditched 4 years ago just to have to market him by themselves? If the owners have a brain in their head, they'll accept the OP's offer and it can be low-ball IMO.

    The OP can also be neutral but brass tacks about why the offer is so low. Even if the OP didn't improve it, she did feed it all that time. Owners think that's not worth much? Then take him, feed a pony you don't want for just 30 days and see what it feels like.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov. 25, 2005
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    984

    Default

    ummm... do you HAVE a lease agreement? If you don't, and if you've been paying for everything, you might own the horse legally already if you put up a fight. I think there has been references to that here before. And honestly, wouldn't it make sense? If you can own a piece of your neighbors land by mowing the lawn and taking care of it for so many years, why wouldn't that apply to a horse/pet?

    I would start using SM's approach- pointing out his monthly expenses for four years, etc.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 26, 2001
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    4,311

    Default

    Thanks guys. I would never expect them to reimburse me for any care, my decision, my dollar. I really am just not sure what's fair.
    He is 15-16 now. Not a good show pony or anything, but a good lesson pony.
    It is very hard to determine market value in this economy.
    I agree that if they want to try for more $$, they need to take him back and market him, although I would help.
    Still confused.
    Also, will add... the reason I took full lease was because they weren't paying good. I spent over $200 right off the bat to get teeth done and shots/coggins updated.
    I don't want to make this any kind of legal issue and I don't want to cheat them.
    I can tell you, if this horse coliced right now, or had an injury, and I called them, he would be mine.
    Last edited by shea'smom; Aug. 3, 2010 at 01:00 PM. Reason: adding



  13. #13
    Join Date
    May. 1, 2006
    Location
    Central Virginia
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    Default

    You were leasing him, you have no rights to him at the end of your lease.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    5,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shea'smom View Post
    But now I think, I am paying for a pony I have paid everything for for the last four years?
    You would have paid for all this if you had owned the pony so what is the difference? If you don't want to buy at fair market value then give the pony back. I've leased a lot of horses and never thought that I should get them for free after a certain length of time. I am grateful for the lease so that if I decide to go in a different direction I can give the horse back.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun. 21, 2001
    Location
    New Amsterdam
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    4,968

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    ummm... do you HAVE a lease agreement? If you don't, and if you've been paying for everything, you might own the horse legally already if you put up a fight.
    She's does not own the pony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    And honestly, wouldn't it make sense? If you can own a piece of your neighbors land by mowing the lawn and taking care of it for so many years, why wouldn't that apply to a horse/pet?
    That's not the way the law works (under either scenerio).

    As a free leasor of many years now, my mare is happily living with her leasee. They treat her as their own (as was originally contemplated and as they should). In exchange, they have had the benefit of many wonderful experiences with her, while I have not. But that was the bargain we made. The fact that I, alone, own her does not change. It is a free lease - there's no magical conversion of ownership under the law no matter how long it continues.

    As far as the OP's question goes, the actual owners interests might be best served by giving or selling the pony to the OP for a nominal amount. She can probably convince them of that - especially if they have no particular interest or emotional attachment to the pony.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2008
    Location
    NY
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    946

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    Quote Originally Posted by shea'smom View Post
    Thanks guys. I would never expect them to reimburse me for any care, my decision, my dollar. I really am just not sure what's fair.

    Also, will add... the reason I took full lease was because they weren't paying good. I spent over $200 right off the bat to get teeth done and shots/coggins updated.
    I don't want to make this any kind of legal issue and I don't want to cheat them.
    Well what would be FAIR would be for them to give him to you but they aren't going to do that. If you are willing to HELP them sell the pony and admit they are not good on paying, you're going to be out even more $$$. So, my original advice still stands-offer them what you are comfortable paying and if they decline, tell them they either have to pay up or move the pony...I know, its easy to say when you aren't emotionally involved but these people don't sound like they play FAIR and are going to end up costing you both money and heartache if you don't spell things out for them legally (in writing) and soon. Good luck!
    JB-Infinity Farm
    www.infinitehorses.com



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    5,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    ummm... do you HAVE a lease agreement? If you don't, and if you've been paying for everything, you might own the horse legally already if you put up a fight.
    Wow. What world do you live in? It never amazes me the sense of entitlement horse people are capable of displaying.

    The horse was a free lease. She does not own it. She was under no obligation to lease it, if the owners weren't paying then she could have kicked them out but she didn't because apparently it was an arrangement that worked for her at the time. While it would be a nice gesture if the people just handed over the pony, you can not blame them for deciding to sell it if it has any value.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by shea'smom View Post
    He is 15-16 now. Not a good show pony or anything, but a good lesson pony.
    I knew it! I got/made up that vibe.

    Do you like said pony? Is he useful to you? It's great that you don't want to cheat the owners.

    Yes, it is like a free-lease in that you didn't "rent to own" or do anything formal. On the other hand, he was sort of abandoned at your farm as well. I can't imagine that you did the whole "stableman's lien" thing (as most people do not).

    But none of that matters, IMO because questions of law and morality aside, the practical ones will probably play a greater role in determining what everyone does.

    I think they'd be smart to just give him to you. If you think so too, then thank them for the use of their pony, say you'll have him up-to-date on everything, spruced up for the sales barn and ask when they want to pick him up. If you want to be a little kinder to pony and people, offer them a sum that wouldn't leave you feeling ripped off.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct. 31, 2001
    Location
    West of insanity, east of apathy, deep in the heart of Texas.
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    15,779

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    Quote Originally Posted by spotmenow View Post
    Tell them: "I can only pay you $XXX for pony because he just isn't earning his keep anymore but I've supported him for 4 years anyway; I understand if you'd like to put him on the market to get more. However, I'm going to have to terminate our lease agreement while you market him and you'll have to start paying his board, farrier and vet bills."

    I bet they agree to take whatever you offer them...it doesn't sound like they're going to want to deal with the expense and hassle of trying to find a buyer.
    Absolutely.
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2007
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    38,430

    Default

    Sounds like they thought you were using the pony and that paid for any expenses.
    It is not their fault that you were not making money with the pony and you didn't tell them and finished the lease.

    Sure, it would be a nice gesture to just give you the pony, but since they want payment, if you want the pony, you will just have to forget all other and you two figure what he is worth to you and buy him, or let him go.

    When they asked for money, I would have laughed and said I thought you gave him to me, teasingly and see where that went.
    At least it would have planted the idea in their heads and made them easier to negotiate with.

    If you want to keep the pony, just keep negotiating until you get close to what you want, if possible.

    This situation falls into one of those that you have to handle as it comes, sometimes those turn well for you, others you end up with the short stick.



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