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  1. #1
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    Oct. 1, 2005
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    Default For the BLM Conspiracy Theorists

    And, possibly, anyone needing entertainment as a break from the heat.

    Some like to say BLM rounds up horses in secret...and yet, gee, here they are, as usual, putting out an environmental assessment to get public input before rounding up a particular group of horses...

    http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/info/new..._a_30-day.html

    You can actually read the document and submit comments on the proposed action by August 26. Or, you can sit around and conjure up your own spin on how to ignore this information and continue to insist that BLM operates 'in secret' as regards feral horses.

    Haven't read it myself, so no comment as yet...busy on another document on the same web site for the time being, for my day job!



  2. #2
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    I think we should hear what Mel Gibson has to say about the matter.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!



  3. #3
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    Default

    I think we should hear what Mel Gibson has to say about the matter.



  4. #4
    Sunlei Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley View Post
    And, possibly, anyone needing entertainment as a break from the heat.

    Some like to say BLM rounds up horses in secret...and yet, gee, here they are, as usual, putting out an environmental assessment to get public input before rounding up a particular group of horses...

    http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/info/new..._a_30-day.html

    You can actually read the document and submit comments on the proposed action by August 26. Or, you can sit around and conjure up your own spin on how to ignore this information and continue to insist that BLM operates 'in secret' as regards feral horses.

    Haven't read it myself, so no comment as yet...busy on another document on the same web site for the time being, for my day job!
    well the BLM has quite the history in Utah. Utah is where the running of wild horses by the blm contracter using aircraft started. Oh about 20 years ago in Utah, and I'm sure its still up on major new orgs like New york times. Utah was running wild horses off cliffs using aircraft and the public outrage was so intense they were forced to stop.

    We as americans pay the blm with our taxes to care for the publics land and the federally protected wild horses. By law of congress in 1971. We as americans have a first am. right to observe and view our federal employees.

    The BLM has comment periods for every round-up, go ahead and read it it is short. If you are familar with the area, comment on why the wild horses should be removed so the strip mines can go in on your Utah public lands.

    Here is a current assesment by an expert who in sworn court deposition, says BLM does a much less than stellar job. And does block wild horses in waterless areas so they can have cattle grazing on public lands instead.

    http://thecloudfoundation.files.word...p-doc-24-6.pdf



  5. #5
    Sunlei Guest

    Default

    and its no conspiracy that running horses (using aircraft) in 90 degree weather for over 2 hours causes heat stroke, road founder and mares to misscarry their foals. foals to be left behind dead.

    I mean would you run your pregnant mares and foals with aircraft over rockie grounds in the heat for an hour? for 2 hours? What would happen to your horses? do you think this would ruin their feet (road founder) and cause your pregnant mares to abort? Do you think the foals would try their hardest to stay with their mare and then fall down in the desert heat. Maybe thats why 40 mares with milk were rounded-up last week and had no foals with them.

    ""Professor Michael Lindinger, an animal and exercise physiologist at the University of Guelph, explains: "It only takes 17 minutes of moderate intensity exercise in hot, humid weather to raise a horse's temperature to dangerous levels. That's three to 10 times faster than in humans. Horses feel the heat much worse than we do."

    And the effects can be serious. If a horse's body temperature shoots up from the normal 37 to 38 C to 41 C, temperatures within working muscles may be as high as 43 C, a temperature at which proteins in muscle begin to denature (cook). Horses suffering excessive heat stress may experience hypotension, colic and renal failure.""""



  6. #6
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    Default Ditto!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunlei View Post
    and its no conspiracy that running horses (using aircraft) in 90 degree weather for over 2 hours causes heat stroke, road founder and mares to misscarry their foals. foals to be left behind dead.

    I mean would you run your pregnant mares and foals with aircraft over rockie grounds in the heat for an hour? for 2 hours? What would happen to your horses? do you think this would ruin their feet (road founder) and cause your pregnant mares to abort? Do you think the foals would try their hardest to stay with their mare and then fall down in the desert heat. Maybe thats why 40 mares with milk were rounded-up last week and had no foals with them.

    ""Professor Michael Lindinger, an animal and exercise physiologist at the University of Guelph, explains: "It only takes 17 minutes of moderate intensity exercise in hot, humid weather to raise a horse's temperature to dangerous levels. That's three to 10 times faster than in humans. Horses feel the heat much worse than we do."

    And the effects can be serious. If a horse's body temperature shoots up from the normal 37 to 38 C to 41 C, temperatures within working muscles may be as high as 43 C, a temperature at which proteins in muscle begin to denature (cook). Horses suffering excessive heat stress may experience hypotension, colic and renal failure.""""
    What she said!

    I mean, do any of us, irrespective of our religious or political beliefs, usually think our government does a GOOD job at the tasks we entrust it with... Hmmm... let me think... the IRS and the US TAX code, roadwork, public utilities, dare I go on???

    Do we really want the US government in charge of any of our barns and horses???

    NOT ME!



  7. #7
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    Default

    Not having ever lived out west, or having studied anything regarding this issue (save for birth control measures for wild mares), I don't have much to say either way.

    If the horses have been run off cliffs/by helicopters in heat (or in any weather for that matter) or otherwise forced to be in any inhumane situation, that is absolutely uncalled for and would not be considered a "conspiracy theory". It's just wrong/evil.

    On the other hand, what has been reported here could easily be a "story", unless there is evidence to support it. Is there evidence? If so, where?

    I will say, when I was a pre-teen, I recall reading a book called "Wild Horse Killers" in which the author (can't recall name) described wild horses being rounded up/killed by helicopters. It was very disturbing. Again, I have no idea if it was based on truth or not.

    I am aware that there is quite a fight out west between the cattle owners and the wild horse supporters for grazing rights - at least according to magazine articles I've read over the years. I imagine both sides put a spin on their "stories" to gain public sympathy.



  8. #8
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    Default

    Sunlei, bless your heart, thank you for illustrating my point so perfectly!

    Lex, I'll go work on the quote from Mel.



  9. #9
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    Default

    ---"I am aware that there is quite a fight out west between the cattle owners and the wild horse supporters for grazing rights - at least according to magazine articles I've read over the years. I imagine both sides put a spin on their "stories" to gain public sympathy."---

    Perspective, that is what people that don't know the real situation don't have.

    In 1971, there was a law passed about how to manage herds of feral horses, because they were overrunning federal and state land and damaging it and nearby private lands.
    Horses are not native to these rather fragile ranges, were not being grazed, but established themselves as an invasive species and were damaging the land for all, including the true native species.

    Since the public wanted to keep those horses as a symbol of pioneer times, someone came up with the bright idea to make the USA government de facto breeders and managers of feral horses and designated ranges for them to live, conditions to manage them and put the BLM in charge.

    Now, the question is, do you really think that if that law would have given feral horses 100% of all the pasture land in the USA, those groups that exist and make millions a year from the "save wild horse" controversy would be happy?
    No, the BLM would still have to manage those horses and somehow keep the numbers in check, no matter how much land you give them.
    After all, those horses are supposed to be a small number, as a symbol, not as the invasive species they are.
    Do we want feral horses to roam all the lands as they uncontrollably expand their numbers?

    I think the problem of how to manage those feral horses as symbols is mostly a great way for some groups to live and thrive and become rich from the controversies they can stir up and so hopefully the gullible public will send them donations to "save the wild horses".
    For some groups, that money is a big part of their income and they are not about to let this golden goose be managed any other way than with controversy.

    The horses? They are the losers here, as is the BLM, that no matter what it does, it can't do right and is used, along with the handy scapegoat of "ranchers wanting to graze cattle".

    Remember when you hear those ranchers in the West using federal land to graze some cattle, that they are extremely strictly controlled, their permits are for a few WEEKS a year of grazing, they some years are closed to any use, if the grass is too sparse in a drought.

    The horses, on the other hand, are there year around and if there is a drought, they starve, after they damage the little grass that managed to grow and so starve also the truly native species in those ranges.

    The BLM is, as any good manager, in charge of managing the land first, because without a thriving basic resource those grasses are, there won't be animals of any kind supported there, not even horses.

    The stories about the greedy ranchers are just one more way to get the attention of the public, bad PR, because anyone can check more and see that such are misleading if not outright false and that ought to reflect on the story teller.

    The truth is there, learn for yourself, don't believe any one side, although in reality there is just one side, that of the ones making money with their "save the wild horses" groups people donate to.
    Everyone else, the BLM and the few ranchers involved are trying to live with whatever they are told to do, they are not out there asking for donations and putting stories out.

    One story is that the ranchers and BLM are out to eliminate the feral horses.
    The facts, in 1971, when the law was passed to protect them as symbols, in designated areas, there were approximately 17,000 wild horses on public lands.
    Now there are 25,000-30,000, not exactly numbers to confirm anyone wanting to kill them out, but numbers to indicate there is a problem with overstocking those ranges and why the BLM is trying to handle that problem.

    If this problem was from a rancher raising horses under those conditions, animal control would have long ago been called about the starving horses and his operation shut down.
    Here, the BLM can't manage the problem those too many horses are without being raked over the coals by those same groups that would be telling all those stories about how that horrible rancher was starving horses, when it is because of their actions, the lawsuits against anything the BLM wants to do, that horses today are not being able to be managed right.

    Get this book if you want to be more informed.
    This book doesn't take sides, it tells it like it is, the good, bad and indifferent, just the facts:

    http://oregonslivinglegends.com/

    For those that don't seem to know, this is who the BLM is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management

    "The BLM has a wide range of responsibilities, including collecting geographic information, maintaining records of land ownership and mineral rights, conserving wilderness areas while allocating other areas for grazing and agriculture, and protecting cultural heritage sites on public land. The BLM operates the National Landscape Conservation System, which protects some U.S. National Monuments, some National Wild and Scenic Rivers, and some designated wildernesses among other types of areas including wilderness study areas.

    BLM is a major employer of wildland firefighters, range conservationists, foresters, botanists, land specialists, geologists, archaeologists, biologists, outdoor recreation planners, and surveyors."



  10. #10
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    Default

    I really wouldn't have an issue with the BLM managing the land and the horses if they could actually manage them correctly. However every time they do a roundup they get THOUSANDS less horses than they want to gather. They say there are 37,000 horses on the lands but they have 0 PROOF there are that many horses on the land. There are NO detailed survey reports of ANY KIND of EXACTLY how many horses are on the land. The BLM needs more employees or at least employees that can count. They have 0 record of what happens to the mustangs once they are "adopted out" and can't even produce a full list of freeze brands in use right now. Nor do they have a place you can look up the brand of your horse to figure out what it is much less what year its born. My favorite though is when you get "papers" saying the bay standing in front of me is supposed to be a palomino with a blaze and two socks.

    "The activists and the government disagree on nearly every statistic about wild horses, including their numbers, how much acreage they are allotted to roam and how much forage is consumed by horses as compared to cattle or wildlife on federal land. Wild horse data are a maze of statistics and spin, where estimates trump exact figures."
    http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/in...-to-extinction
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  11. #11
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    Jun. 1, 2007
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    Default

    Great info, Bluey.There are definitely more sides to this story then what is presented by the loudest voice, but in the end, the horses are on the losing end of the stick.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitma View Post
    What she said!

    I mean, do any of us, irrespective of our religious or political beliefs, usually think our government does a GOOD job at the tasks we entrust it with... Hmmm... let me think... the IRS and the US TAX code, roadwork, public utilities, dare I go on???

    Do we really want the US government in charge of any of our barns and horses???

    NOT ME!
    Then get rid of the Wild Horse and Burro Program, the taxpayers will now save millions of dollars that went to the care of these horses. Without the WH&B program, all horses in long term holding will likely go straight to Canada and Mexico for slaughter. The ones left on the range will be left on their own and without PROTECTION from the BLM, they will be rounded up by folks looking to make a buck sending them to slaughter, just like before the wild horse laws went in to effect. If they get onto private farm and hay fields they will likely be shot. Sounds like a great deal for the horses if the goverment isn't in charge of them anymore. Oh, unless you are going to take them all.......



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGoose View Post
    Then get rid of the Wild Horse and Burro Program, the taxpayers will now save millions of dollars that went to the care of these horses. Without the WH&B program, all horses in long term holding will likely go straight to Canada and Mexico for slaughter. The ones left on the range will be left on their own and without PROTECTION from the BLM, they will be rounded up by folks looking to make a buck sending them to slaughter, just like before the wild horse laws went in to effect. If they get onto private farm and hay fields they will likely be shot. Sounds like a great deal for the horses if the goverment isn't in charge of them anymore. Oh, unless you are going to take them all.......
    Yep. For all the people who think big government is bad and want their tax cuts and also complain about the size of the deficit, this would be one place to start. And think of how many programs like this the government sponsors - all special interests - all expensive.



  14. #14
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    Thanks for all the info Bluey, it saved me from having to say pretty much the exact same thing.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by leilatigress View Post
    They say there are 37,000 horses on the lands but they have 0 PROOF there are that many horses on the land. There are NO detailed survey reports of ANY KIND of EXACTLY how many horses are on the land.
    Funny thing. The link I provided in the first post includes...detailed survey reports of numbers of horses. Guess you didn't bother to look, eh?

    Do you only read that which supports your personal preconceptions?



  16. #16
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    Madeline Pickens volunteered to take on all the mustangs with some help from the government. Instead of working out something with her, the BLM prefers to round up using helicopters and warehouse these horses in "holding pens" for who knows how long and for adoptions that are not followed up. The BLM should NOT be managing these animals. They are too tied in with the ranchers and hunters. The horses have no voice. The helicopter round ups are like terrorists to the mustangs and always kill and maim -- how horrendous and primitive! Let's not forget how the BLM has also been a proponent of helicopter kills of wolves in their native territories, around their dens including cubs and nursing mothers. Oh yes -- and they also are over the lands and areas where the oil "spills" (LEAKS!) have happened -- again -- in bed with the enemy. The mustangs deserve to live in peace as do other animals that are wild or feral. "Controls" and "managing" should not include such disgusting methods, particularly when the ecology and environment is also compromised. I've written letters about the mustangs since grammar school and nothing has changed -- they are still treated horribly by the BLM who supplies the public with misleading information with their spin on it. Ken Salazar sold his soul a long time ago to the special interest groups with $$ and clout -- something the animals don't have. The BLM knows nothing about the animals it manages and doesn't care. JMHO!
    PennyG



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    Madeline Pickens volunteered to take on all the mustangs with some help from the government.
    Her proposal would cost the tax payer far more per horse than they are paying now.
    She was doing no one any favors.



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    Her proposal would cost the tax payer far more per horse than they are paying now.
    She was doing no one any favors.
    She would have become much richer than she is now. Not sure if she was thinking about saving horses or seeing dollar signs!



  19. #19
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    Ditto on the thanks Bluey. I can only add that the adoptions ARE followed up. Yesterday I was at the barn moping after a bad call when the BLM inspector showed up to do the BO's one year post adoption visit. He asked me how the horse was doing, how the BO treated the horse, if the horse had proper veterinary care etc. I was able to confirm the BO is a good horse owner (no reason to tell him the BO is an idiot, or an asshat-he does take VERY GOOD care of his horse and that's what the BLM needed to know)
    Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
    Sam: A job? Does it pay?
    Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
    Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKR View Post
    The mustangs deserve to live in peace as do other animals that are wild or feral.
    What about when the presence of the horses endangers the other wild critters who live out there, or destroys native vegetation?

    The BLM has one of the most thankless jobs in government, I think.

    It doesn't help that many of the activists seem to make up their own facts - on another thread on this subject on another board, there are some quotes by a wild horse activist that debunk many of the more recent claims made by the cloud foundation and other groups (fencing off of water, that cattle are grazing in some places now and that's why they're moving horses, etc, etc, etc.)

    I've been checking out some rumors that have been circulating. My concerns are that if we are to wage an effective campaign for the horses, we darn sure need to know what we're talking about.

    So I've "double sourced" the following rumor control issues before posting this message.

    Rumor #1: Horses are dying while cattle are still out on the public lands.
    Answer: No cattle are on the public lands in the Star Ridge and High Creek pastures (the public lands associated with this gather.) I wanted to confirm that the grazing season is over, which is correct, but I also found out that both pastures were on "rest" this season so they weren't grazed at all by cattle over the past winter and spring.

    It was suggested to me that the confusion over cattle could be caused by the fact that the road to Owyhee passes through private ranches, most notably the IL Ranch. There are fenced off areas on these private ranches that hold cattle.

    Rumor #2: Ranchers fenced off horses from water.
    I hadn't thought of the answer to this one but it soon became pretty obvious. Since no cattle were turned out in the pastures, the stockmen didn't operate the wells. So it wasn't a fence out issue but rather a wells not being started up issue. My personal thought is that someone should have put two and two together on that one and made arrangements to acquire supplementary water.
    Using Star Ridge as an example, most water is accumulated in water catchments and is supplemented by a private well when cattle are out. The catchments have dried up since there has been almost no rainfall and of course with no cattle being run, nobody was providing supplementary water. The result was that the pasture went dry.

    Other notes.

    BLM reports having delivered 30,000 gallons of water so far. Some of the horses are drinking it. Some are not. I was told by a couple of folks that the access to the river is steep and tricky and the weaker horses are believed to not be able to make it down to the river, which explains why some of them aren't getting water.

    I'm attaching a photo of one of the springs on private land. You can see that the spring is not fenced, but the problem is that the spring is running so poorly this year that it's barely a tiny puddle and it takes the horses an inordinately long time to get a drink.

    I think the most significant lesson here is that these resources issues have to be monitored, especially when seasonal land uses (that bring in man-supplied water) are not occurring and when there is a marked decrease in normal rainfall. My experience has been that horses and other wildlife will use man supplied water sources when not in an already severely weakened state and when their mental faculties are operating correctly. Sometimes they can reach a point of weakness and being so "spacey" that they won't approach anything that is unfamiliar.

    Willis
    (frmo willis lamm - website here: http://www.kbrhorse.net/ but it's big and lots and lots of links - the war room seems to have lots of updates, and they seem relatively objective as far as this issue goes.)

    Not that the above is about the entire situation, but it seems to me that there are anti-BLM people out there who are assuming things and passing out rumor as fact - which honestly doesn't do anybody any good.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.



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