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  1. #1
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    Default Asprin to seniors?

    Hello all!

    Can't ask my vet until monday so I just figured I would post here in the meantime

    I have a 23 year old on again off again lame gelding. I do not want to be pushing bute in his face everyday and tear his tummy to shreds....I heard that some ppl supplement asprin daily to their horses....is this common? and if so how much can I safely give him to maintain his comfort level?

    He is currently on adequan and MSM and is coming up lame at the trot due to his arthritis.

    any tips would be helpful!
    don't squat with your spurs on!



  2. #2
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    Default

    I believe that all NSAIDs pose the same risk to the stomach.
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!



  3. #3
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    Aspirin is no more or less likely to cause GI irritation than bute, and it has to be dosed 3-4 times per day, ideally. (unless you're just using one dose for a specific thing, like when the farrier's coming and the horse is stiff holding its legs up, etc.)

    For long-term use you might be better off with Equi-oxx (can't spell that) or Surpass used topically or giving something with the NSAID to protect the stomach.
    Click here before you buy.



  4. #4
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    Default

    after I posted this I started a search (probably should of done that first...) and reached the same conclusion you guys just stated above Any thoughts on BL solution????
    don't squat with your spurs on!



  5. #5
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    Default

    B-L Solution has devil's claw in it, which can cause ulcers in some horses, or at least make them more susceptible to them. If you do a search for "devil's claw" or "B-L Solution", you'll see there are a lot of threads pertaining to both.

    I did a LOT of research on this with my old guy, because he had severe arthritis.

    Kim
    I loff my Quarter horse clique

    I kill threads dead!



  6. #6
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    Unfortunately, the same thing that makes NSAIDS work also makes them tough on the stomach. Can't have the effect without the side effect. This goes for "natural" NSAIDS as well.
    Click here before you buy.



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Unfortunately, the same thing that makes NSAIDS work also makes them tough on the stomach. Can't have the effect without the side effect. This goes for "natural" NSAIDS as well.
    Interesting. Does that mean that buffered or coated types of NSAIDS are less effective than the same dose uncoated/buffered?

    (I can believe it, though. I take methotrexate for arthritis, and it can be pretty hard on the stomach to take - causes nausea and so on - and while I take pills, I've spoken to other people who get injections instead, and they seem to have the same sorts of stomach symptoms even though in their case, the drug is obviously not physically in the stomach to be causing irritation.)



  8. #8
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    Buffering HELPS. A buffered NSAID is basically coated with an antacid, so any potential injury to the stomach mucosa will not be greeted with as much of an acid environment when there is a buffer present. But the buffering does diddly poo to prevent the ulceration in the first place.

    Enteric coating prevents the drug from dissolving IN the stomach (it does so later on down the line) which also HELPS. But the effect of NSAIDS on the gastric mucosa is not dependent on the presence of the drug in the stomach--the damage can occur "from afar", too.

    Neither buffering nor enteric coating decrease the effectiveness of NSAIDs, as far as I'm aware. Enteric coating can delay onset of action, however. Which is why we give "regular" (uncoated) aspirin to someone having a heart attack.

    Methotrexate is not an NSAID, strictly speaking, at least not in the sense that it is a prostaglandin inhibitor. Prostaglandins in the stomach are the "good guys" and prostaglandins elsewhere often play the role of "bad guys". Which is why NSAIDs (which block prostaglandins) often help everywhere else but hurt the stomach.
    Click here before you buy.



  9. #9
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    Default

    You might want to try Turmeric. I've had really good results with it for arthritic joints. I get mine throught Mountain Rose Herbs. Otherwise, look into the threads on Previcox or maybe even Pentosan.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by candico View Post
    You might want to try Turmeric. I've had really good results with it for arthritic joints. I get mine throught Mountain Rose Herbs. Otherwise, look into the threads on Previcox or maybe even Pentosan.
    You can also use White Willow Bark (herb) or Meadowsweet (also herb). Meadowsweet is more recommended for horses that tend to have gut issues. But both can be used long term will little to no side effects. Mountain Rose Herbs has both of those, also.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Methotrexate is not an NSAID, strictly speaking, at least not in the sense that it is a prostaglandin inhibitor. Prostaglandins in the stomach are the "good guys" and prostaglandins elsewhere often play the role of "bad guys". Which is why NSAIDs (which block prostaglandins) often help everywhere else but hurt the stomach.
    Oh, I know. I mentioned MTX more as an example of another drug where it's not the physical presence of the drug in the stomach that is necessarily causing the problem, since the problems are experienced with both dosing mechanisms.

    Very frustrating sometimes to have to do the balancing act, though, between a therapeutic dose of something like an NSAID for inflammation and not upsetting the stomach. (Particularly given that horses seem to be quite good at upsetting their digestive system all by themselves. )



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballus View Post
    You can also use White Willow Bark (herb) or Meadowsweet (also herb). Meadowsweet is more recommended for horses that tend to have gut issues. But both can be used long term will little to no side effects. Mountain Rose Herbs has both of those, also.
    Isn't willow bark basically the same thing as aspirin, and therefore would have the same sort of risk of stomach issues?



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdow View Post
    Isn't willow bark basically the same thing as aspirin, and therefore would have the same sort of risk of stomach issues?
    It is but in its natural form. The main property of WWB is Salicin and has been used for centuries for inflammation. The artificial compound (salicylic acid) is aspirin and that is what can cause gut upset. But the natural, inner bark of the white willow tree is known to be pretty much risk-free.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  14. #14
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    Risk free. KNOWN to be risk free. That would be a first. If willow bark works, it's because it is an active substance, yes? Without the ability to tell "good" effect from "bad"? Unless you intend to tell us that the stuff is intelligent enough to only do good things?

    What makes things like salicylates (natural or otherwise) WORK as anti-inflammatories is their abililty to block the production of prostaglandins. Which is why they cause ulcers. If a product like this is effective, you also have to accept that it's also doing the unintended part. Non-negotiable rule of physiology. This is why Devil's Claw is considered unsafe for horses with ulcers, and that is "natural" as well.
    Click here before you buy.



  15. #15
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    Default

    More detailed info on white willow bark can be found here:

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/w...ark-000281.htm

    and also,

    http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69421.cfm

    There are also other properties in the WWB that are active as well, in addition to the salicylin.

    Devil's Claw has different properties. Its not the same as WWB or Meadowsweet.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  16. #16
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    I'd just give a gram of bute and some Gastrogard as needed. I live with chronic pain and take ibuprofen and diclofenac sodium. I take omeprazole (main ingredient in Gastrogard for horses) a couple of times a week and I have no problems, despite having had digestive issues in the past.



  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caballus View Post
    More detailed info on white willow bark can be found here:

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/w...ark-000281.htm

    and also,

    http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69421.cfm

    There are also other properties in the WWB that are active as well, in addition to the salicylin.

    Devil's Claw has different properties. Its not the same as WWB or Meadowsweet.
    Both of those links also say that WWB can result in nausea, stomach bleeding, ulcers, etc., just the same as if you had administered aspirin. They do not in any way say that it is "known to be risk-free". As DW said, it is the mechanism by which salicylates work that also causes the side effects, so you can't have one without the other - it doesn't matter if they are "natural" salicylates or not.



  18. #18
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    Notice that I said, "pretty much risk free" ... I did not say "IS risk free". Also note that

    There are no warnings about it in "A Modern Horse Herbal" by Hillary Page Self (Founder of Hilton Herbs) and personally, I've never heard of any ill-effects from it in the uses with horses. Horses, when given the opportunity and they need it, will eat the tree and leaves on their own. I gave 1 tbsp of WWB to my QH daily for probably close to 5+ years or more for his arthritis with never any problems. Notice the links below that say "tend to be mild" and "Infrequent" adverse reactions.

    Side effects tend to be mild. However, stomach upset, ulcers and stomach bleeding are potentially side effects of all compounds containing salicylates. Overdoses of willow bark may cause skin rash, stomach inflammation/irritation, nausea, vomiting, kidney inflammation, and tinnitus (ringing in the ears).
    University of Maryland Medical Ctr.

    Adverse Reactions
    Infrequent: Nausea, vomiting, gastrointestinal bleeding, tinnitus, and renal damage (4) (12).
    Willow bark supplements can affect platelet aggregation (13).
    Sloan Kettering.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  19. #19
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    The Sloan-Kettering site also says, "Adverse reactions are analogous to those seen with aspirin."

    Plenty of people take an aspirin a day with no problem, either. I personally take ibuprofen on a pretty regular basis and don't have stomach ulcers. Just because you or I know someone who has not experienced side effects, does not mean that they are not possible or even very unlikely.

    Can you please explain to me exactly what it is about WWB that makes you think it has significantly less side effects than aspirin? Because, to reiterate yet again what DW said, it is the very mechanism that makes it work that causes the side effects. So either it doesn't work and doesn't have the potential for side effects, it works and does have the potential for side effects, or it has some kind of magical properties that allow it to escape the rules of physiology...



  20. #20
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    Look, no. I'm not going to argue the points here. If you truly want to find out then look further yourself. -- the OP asked for tips. I mentioned WWB and Meadowsweet. Others mentioned Devil's Claw and Turmeric. Take it as it is. There's nothing 'magical' about herbs. Just as there's nothing 'magical' about synthetic drugs. They either work for an individual or don't. People have preferences; mine preference happens to lean towards non-synthetics and I will mention what I've learned or experienced over decades to work well when someone is looking for solutions.
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



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