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  1. #1
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    Red face International Sporthorse Registry-highly regarded?

    I know there are all types of registries(?). It seems like some are more "valued" than others when it comes to crosses.

    I'm refering to AWS, AWR, etc. where does ISP fall in regard to "not allowing just any horse" to be registered.

    Please don't "flame" me...not trying to be obnoxious.



  2. #2
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    AHS, GOV, and KWPN are the most well regarded in my opinion.

    OLD NA/ISR, BWP, and RPSI fall next.

    AWR, and AWS are lowest in my book.


    It will all depend on who you ask. Those are just my personal opinion, and obviously does not include all the registries as I know little about Holsteiner, Trak, etc.
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  3. #3
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    Dressage_Diva, I think that you have it right.......there seems to be 3 tiers of registries for sporthorses.

    Top Tier: Hanoverian, GOV, KWPN, Holsteiner

    Middle Tier: Old NA, RPSI, BWP

    Bottom Tier: ISR, AWS, AWR

    Didn't include Trak since they are a closed registry and we are talking "sporthorses", not a specific breed.

    Top tier is interchangeable with European stock. Middle tier is sometimes interchangeable with European stock and bottom tier is not interchangeable with the European model.

    Flame away.
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  4. #4
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    The Irish studbook is 1 in eventing, using a combination of Irish Draught, TB and Holst

    ETA the Irish Draught x TB stallion, Cruising is AFAIK the only stallion to appear on two lists, in 2009 he was 11th in eventing and 30th in jumping
    Last edited by carolprudm; Jul. 22, 2010 at 07:39 AM. Reason: edited to add
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  5. #5
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    I'm going to throw a slightly different perspective into this discussion...

    I look at bloodlines that are verified by DNA before the associated registry approval/papers. There are bloodlines that I won't touch with a 10 foot pole in almost every registry book...let alone throw a leg over on a daily basis to train the horse in question up the levels.

    But I am an FEI rider first, breeder second, so soundness (therefore long term performance success at a high level), conformation, temperament and ability are arranged differently on my priority list than other people's. Papers/registries can mean very little if the horse in front of you is a symphony of conformation flaws with a bad attitude...and those beasties 'happen' no matter what brand is on the horse's rump.

    So FWIW - if the horse/pony is performing in your chosen area of sport with sufficient credentials to back up it's success, something must have been done correctly as far as planning what genetics went into that particular animal. Or if it is a proven producer (mare or stallion), look to the offspring & their success rather than the 'name' of the stud book on the papers.

    But if you are breeding to sell, stick with the big gun registries as they have the most marketing success behind them and 'brand recognition' to facilitate sales. If you are looking at breeding for yourself (riding horses), go with the horse/registry that appeals to YOU.

    But that's just MHO and I freely admit to having a stallion that is not approved by his birth registry (AHS) but is by some of the other 'top tier' registries. All of his offspring that are here on our farm are in the AWR - we stopped registering our stock with the AHS in the 80's. I couldn't stomach sending more of my own hard earned $$ to Germany when the foals are born here in PA and not born in Oldenburg or Hanover. It seemed dishonest on a basic level to call them anything but American.



  6. #6
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    I would add Westphalian to the top tier.

    I imagine Danish WB and Swedish WB could probably also be considered "top tier".



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    I would add Westphalian to the top tier.

    I imagine Danish WB and Swedish WB could probably also be considered "top tier".
    Yes, DW, I agree. Didn't mean to skip these big guys. Also add Dfzp and Mecklenburg.
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  8. #8
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    where does ISP fall in regard to "not allowing just any horse" to be registered.
    I assume that's a typo and you meant ISR??? The ISR arm of the ISR/OLNA certainly does NOT just take any horse. They will take 'off brands' if that's what you are referring to - approved/registered as ISR IF, and ONLY if they meet the requirements for conformation, type and movement. I have seen mares turned away on several occassions, and that at just one inspection site - have only been to 3 sites out of all they do - and their foals given a COP because the mare did not meet the requirements for breeding approval.

    Registries like PHR will take anything with 4 legs and a tail. That's the value of inspecting breeding stock when you're talking about breeding sport horses, vs some of the new 'registries' that want to mix and match American bred, like QH, ASB, Morgan, Appaloosa, etc and call it a sport horse and don't want anyone to inspect them. Even the AWS and AWR, have grown and changed considerably in the last some years through the process of inspection and weeding out and are now full members of the WBFSH.
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  9. #9
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    I wasn't always a Smurf
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    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasker View Post
    But if you are breeding to sell, stick with the big gun registries as they have the most marketing success behind them and 'brand recognition' to facilitate sales. If you are looking at breeding for yourself (riding horses), go with the horse/registry that appeals to YOU.
    This is the best piece of advice I read re. what registry to use. I absolutely agree and that is why I have chosen the registries that I use. Because I am breeding to sell at this point and starting my breeding program. It is not yet the time for me to try new things before being established, I am follow the tried and true proven protocol, and down the road, I might step out of the beaten paths...

    The proposed order of "respect" is good IMO.
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  11. #11
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    Some bloodlines can not be verified ex a TB born in 1932 has papers from jockey club (no dna avail Jockey club )did not orig had dna technolgy so none could be produced . Vet hand shake and owners sig was all that was needed , talked to jockey club about this and they had only some records as they had moved and a lot was not on computer from certain dates, Worst off when this all took place ISR WAS NOT EVEN AROUND BUT REQUIREs DNA to prooved authentisity ,didnt matter grandmom had papers but she was not inspected , problem because she was dead and reg again did not exist . I had a copy from orig owner (the mare was long dead since 1970 I beleive the grand mom ) so the registry claimed it could be a fraud but got dna on everthing else to prove my case . I even tracked down and talked to vet that delivered the foal orig mentioned to verify. still with all that cant get my 3rd gen mare upgraded because of dna that was not avail to me infact I was an infant when all this took place . So registrys are not as easy as one may think. They make you jump threw hoops but if you want to have papers you have to follow the requirements even if you are not at fault and play the games.
    Last edited by fefedog; Jul. 22, 2010 at 11:42 AM. Reason: the date on the orig mare she was born in 1963 same story other wise



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post

    Thank you for posting that--it is a very informative read.

    Do you know if they keep historical records? It would be interesting to see the development of some studbooks to the top of the FEI rankings and those that have maybe made a left turn somewhere.
    Last edited by dilligaff2; Jul. 22, 2010 at 09:45 AM. Reason: editing to add: I see there are records back to 2004. I wonder if there are any further back?
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  13. #13
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    FWIW one of my mares is supposedly by Falke. I have had zero luck even finding out any options
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilligaff2 View Post
    Thank you for posting that--it is a very informative read.

    Do you know if they keep historical records? It would be interesting to see the development of some studbooks to the top of the FEI rankings and those that have maybe made a left turn somewhere.
    http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Rankings/Pr...0rankings.aspx

    I wish it was easier to find out how many horses were registered with each stud book.

    For example if studbook x registered 40,000 foals and is rated #1 and studbook y ranked #2 registered 1000 foals book Y has a better success rate.

    JMO
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  15. #15
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    There are other considerations too. I switched from one of the 'top tier" because their inspections are VERY few and far between. My baby doesn't need a 12 hour trailer ride to find an inspection. I don't have the facilities or money to host one. ISR/OLD does have many inspections and is generally easy to work with. Many factors to these decisions.



  16. #16
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    I have to disagree with the fact that certain registries have more sales - that's a rather sweeping statement and I'd love to have the statistical details to back it up. I say this because there really is no statistics to prove that certain registries make sales easier. We've found a significant number of our buyers couldn't give a rats butt about the registry or the brand. They want a performance horse for their discipline and that's what they buy.

    As far as selling to other Breeders - there probably is more attention to the registry - as breeders usually work with one or two registries and not all of them. That relates to what they expect from the registry, their rules/regs and to a significant extent costs.

    There's really no EASY in selling horses or ponies. We've found it does certainly come down to the talent and training on the horse or pony but many buyers have significant preferences as far as sex, size, color, markings, etc.

    The ISR rules/regs are published on the ISR/OLDNA website. I worked to expand the registry into the ISR SPORT PONY DIVISION because I wanted to see GRP's here in the USA. The regulations for the Sportpony division are on par with those in Germany.
    Last edited by ise@ssl; Jul. 22, 2010 at 12:29 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    http://www.wbfsh.org/?GB/Rankings/Pr...0rankings.aspx

    I wish it was easier to find out how many horses were registered with each stud book.

    For example if studbook x registered 40,000 foals and is rated #1 and studbook y ranked #2 registered 1000 foals book Y has a better success rate.

    JMO
    Of course you know that the studbook succes rate will have no influence wathsoever on your own programs succes rate. I also found that the marketing impact of a studbook might exist but is limited. Their will always be die hard fans of such or suhch studbook but it appears to me limited to a "breeding" clientel which is not a major market compared to the sport market. A good horse will sell wathever brand is on it.

    As for splitting studbooks into tiers, found it to be kind of funny. Decisions to register a foal in a studbook, in europe, is usually a question of geography first. Then sometimes, a political one. Sometimes, it is simply a question of passion for the history of a particular branding.

    Personnaly, I register all my foals with the Canadian Warmblood. My first motivation was a patriotic one, as I am proud to produce quality horses in Canada and want to help put Canadian breeding on the map. Also, with the "openness" of most modern studbook, the choice of a studbook no longer limits you with the bloodlines you decide to work with. Finaly, their are more representative of that studbook in my region, making it easier and cheaper to obtain services. Finaly, all the decisions being taken in Canada, taking into account Canadian reality, it is easyer for members to have their voices heard.

    I breed almost exclusively with KWPN blood. I also like to work with some specific Selle Fran├žais marelines and stallions. I naturally choose those bloodlines because they are the one I am most familliar with and because it is easyer to find information on them through my memberships to those studbooks and through contacts in the sport and in breeding both here and abroad. Nothwitstanding all that, I still register in CWHBA.



  18. #18
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    It is interesting to note that our only five year old to qualify for the World Championships for young dressage horses is by an AWR stallion out of a Canadian warmblood mare. A good horse is a good horse is a good horse.
    Anne
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by not again View Post
    It is interesting to note that our only five year old to qualify for the World Championships for young dressage horses is by an AWR stallion out of a Canadian warmblood mare.
    People keep saying this but it is not correct.

    The Hanoverian gelding Selten HW also qualified for the WC. His owner elected not to go - and at a cost of AT LEAST $30,000 to get there and back, I can certainly understand why.

    But I agree that kudos need to go to the breeder, owner, and rider of the AWR horse that IS going.



  20. #20
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    Personnaly, I register all my foals with the Canadian Warmblood. My first motivation was a patriotic one, as I am proud to produce quality horses in Canada and want to help put Canadian breeding on the map. Also, with the "openness" of most modern studbook, the choice of a studbook no longer limits you with the bloodlines you decide to work with. Finaly, their are more representative of that studbook in my region, making it easier and cheaper to obtain services. Finaly, all the decisions being taken in Canada, taking into account Canadian reality, it is easyer for members to have their voices heard.

    The problem is that because they are so open most people have no idea what it means to be a Canadian wb. Alot of the horses that I sell here (clients horses in training) are Can wb but I swear almost everyone who comes out to see them asks "well what does that mean, Canadian WB?" Like what IS it? And fair enough, because it can mean anything from a pinto saddlebred cross, to a perch tb cross to a fully Dutch bred horse. And of course, that doesn't make for a very uniform type. It definately is not a selling feature though for the geldings most people aren't overly turned off.
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