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  1. #1
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    Question So why exactly DON'T the "American" Registries...

    accept American blood?

    I'm talking AWS & AWR.

    I know both take it in the lower books. I also believe neither take it in the highest/approved for breeding book, correct?

    Does anyone else see the irony?
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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  2. #2
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    What do you mean by "American blood"?
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  3. #3
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    I believe she is talking about historically "american" breeds of horses, i.e. QH's, Saddlebreds, Morgans etc. Honestly I think it is becuase it is not what the "popular" sporthorse market wants! And the fact they have "warmblood" in their name, of which none of our historically "american" breeds really fits into this category. I think an "American Sporthorse" registry is LONG overdue that would inspect and set up studbooks for truely AMERICAN breeds of sport type horses!



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  5. #5
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    If that's the case, then I understand, IF their intent is to try to get to a type of horse akin to the European WBs.

    The problem is they've painted a pretty black and white picture, when it's not always that black and white. There is a very clear delineation, at least from what little I know about the ASBs, between those bred for the "fire breathing dragon" market and those bred for the sporthorse market. There is a very different type of QH depending on whether he's 31/32nds TB, or whether he's a registered Foundation QH.

    To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

    The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    If that's the case, then I understand, IF their intent is to try to get to a type of horse akin to the European WBs.

    The problem is they've painted a pretty black and white picture, when it's not always that black and white. There is a very clear delineation, at least from what little I know about the ASBs, between those bred for the "fire breathing dragon" market and those bred for the sporthorse market. There is a very different type of QH depending on whether he's 31/32nds TB, or whether he's a registered Foundation QH.

    To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

    The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
    Hence my "Suggestion" of an "American Sport Horse" registry. Throw out the word "Warmblood", inspect and approve AMERICAN breeds only (including the american TB) and allow crosses between aproved, insected horses to create a "modern" sporthorse type from our own breeds. I have an appaloosa SPORT HORSE. Yes, he is registered with ApHC but is ANYTHING BUT The typical "QH with spots (or without as so many of them are now!)". He is a sport type horse, moves like a sporthorse, is uphill build and does not have the "typical" appaloosa/QH type bloodlines. He won't "win" in the app showring due to this, but has done quite well (with limited showing) in eventing and dressage, as well as a few hunter and jumper shows. Now that I (hopefully!) have more time to campaign him he is going back to the showring. I would love to see a studbook established that would recognize him, and others like him, regardless of their "breed" as sport horses that can be used to develop a distinctly "American" horse for sport



  7. #7
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    We've talked about needing a true American Sport Horse Registry for years...a place where truly American breeds are not discriminated against and where horses of various American breeds purpose bred for sport can be recorded.

    Just think of what a marketing tool it could be for those of us trying to get our American horses to where buyers know to look. That thread on dressage recently about what could you get under $10k for example. We have so many nice horses here but people have such a hard time looking for American breeds that are purpose bred for sport. Even if we did nothing more than found a marketing group of some sort???

    The market sucks so bad right now that maybe if enough people would put aside their differences perhaps we could make something happen for once for American horses (and I'm not talking about WB's born in America) but breeds developed right here on this continent.



  8. #8
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    Default Nay sayer!

    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.



  9. #9
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    Columbus! Well said!!!

    yes, I am meaning: Morgan, QH, Appaloosa, ASB, Colonial Spanish, APHA, etc. (I know I am forgetting some, forgive me!)

    To blanketly throw out all ASBs, and all QHs, just because of that label, does them no service at all.

    The REAL problem with AWS and AWR is they have no apparent direction in actually building a sporthorse that is unique to the US. Until they do, I agree, they are not a great place to be.
    Very well said.

    I am sure we'll be accused of trying to reinvent the wheel, but there are those of us with American breeds who are excellent Sporthorse prospects. Shawnee is a great case in point. She should NEVER have to masquerade her guy as anything but what he is--a well bred, *specifically* bred APPALOOSA. But many folks would think that he should have to somehow be approved Knabstrupper or some such to be 'viable.'

    My stallion is 1/16ths ASB. Meg Hamilton LOVES him and said "This is the kind of stallion you see in Europe for breed improvement." And yet, he only squeaked into RPSI Book I because of a quirk--his 1/16th ASB happened to show as "Pinto" on his IAHA reg papers. I'm grateful... but... also loathe to keep giving that kind of $$$ every year to a German registry. (he is not current--I'm not trying to 'fake' anything.)

    I see and know of some fabulous Saddlebreds, Morgans, Paints (yes APHA, not "pintos") and Colonial Spanish horses who could contribute SO MUCH to the Sporthorse world. Yet to breed them to their own lines would actually be a disservice--going backwards *away* from sporthorse characteristics. Yet to continue to breed them for Sporthorse ventures... there are few places to register and track them.

    Sorry... just having a bad night here I guess. I answered another post about a lovely ASB mare, and thought what a shame it is that she needs to be "Euro-ed" in order for her foals to be considered...
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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  10. #10
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    I have mixed feelings about the inspection process. On one hand, its NOT something that "we" american breed people are used to, but on the other look at how the breeds we love have degraded/morphed over the years into something other than what they were orginally intended to be. I have ntohing against the "breed" people breeding what they want, but to have another venue for us that want to preserve a different, better (in our opinion) and more "true" standard then I feel that we would need to have inspections of some sort. Actually, it used to be that many breeds DID require an inspector. This is true of the QH breed, if you wanted to advance an appendix registered horse from the appendix registry to the permanent registry, you had to have an inspector inspect the horse first. THis was true of several american breeds that had "temporary" books. Now that has gone by the wayside and anything can be bred, and some of what I have seen as "breeding stock" is horrifying! Of course, i am also a person that does NOT like government rules and regulations on free trade, so I have a real issue battling both sides of the inspection issue!



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by columbus View Post
    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
    No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to inspect your horses. But if you want to register your horses as Hanoverians, for instance, you have to be willing to play by Hanoverian rules. Ditto for Oldenburg, KWPN, Westphalian, etc. If you don't want to have to take your horses to an inspection, chose a registry that doesn't require inspection. Or don't register them (although God knows, I am not a fan of unregistered horses).

    It is like joining a club - you have to agree to abide by the club rules. People usually want to join a club or organization because they perceive there is some benefit to being a member - and it is the organization's rules and policies that have made it what it is. Why should registries throw out the very policies that made them successful?



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by columbus View Post
    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it.
    Then don't. Nobody forces you to. It's not a a requirement for you to breed. But if you want to then register those offspring with certain registries, it DOES become a requirement. It's a matter of "play by the rules or get out of the sandbox"

    I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting.
    Sure it's political - all entities of any size eventually become political to some extent. The AQHA and the JC are extremely political, despite having ZERO inspection process. It's their politics which still allow HYPP horses to be registered, and why AI is not allowed for a JC TB.

    I can't see how it's insulting at all. If your horse doesn't meet their standards, then either the horse shows a failure of that breeding, or you're looking at the wrong registry. Their rules, you don't have to play.

    At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection.
    Maybe it should then be a time of less breeding

    In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans.
    Perhaps it was because we didn't have the people qualified to to the inspections ourselves. I find it hard to believe they were really puzzled.

    Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them.
    Darn that capitalistic mentality!

    I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
    Why don't you get involved then? It is not at all like TWR. You're forced to pay taxes. You are not forced to breed, or to have your horses inspected. If you don't like that they are representing, then don't pay your "taxes". I really don't see why it's such a hard decision.

    If you're REALLY that concerned, why aren't you lobbying with the AWS or AWR about why they are in such a stalemate with themselves?
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  13. #13
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    FWIW, Pintopiaffe - I just tried to look up your stallion on your website. The domain in your signature has expired.

    "InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs" points to http://www.innisfailte.com - which isn't your website.

    I found an Angelfire.com site for you through Google - but all the links on that site point back to http://www.innisfailte.com .

    You may want to reclaim your domain name and get your website updated.

    And meanwhile - I am curious to see your stallion's pedigree. Is he listed on Allbreedpedigree.com? What is his name?



  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=pintopiaffe;4992254


    My stallion is 1/16ths ASB. Meg Hamilton LOVES him and said "This is the kind of stallion you see in Europe for breed improvement." And yet, he only squeaked into RPSI Book I because of a quirk--his 1/16th ASB happened to show as "Pinto" on his IAHA reg papers. I'm grateful... but... also loathe to keep giving that kind of $$$ every year to a German registry. (he is not current--I'm not trying to 'fake' anything.)

    .[/QUOTE]

    AWS and AWR aew members of WBFSH, they are breeding warmbloods. As such, they need to use the same standards as other WB registries to grant breeding approval.

    Would you mind providing the name of your stallion and what year he was is RPSI Book I ? Curious because I don't believe he would have been eligible given the limited pedigree info you provided. I have their year books going back a ways and don't see anything that sounds similar.
    Book II is something else. Those stallions are not approved for breeding.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by columbus View Post
    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
    No no no! THis is the typical American mentality that hoarders use.........but it's a free country.....I can breed if I waaaaaant toooooo! Waaaaaaa! Well yes, it is America and you can breed if you want to, but don't expect to get top $ for your youngsters if they aren't registered and yes it is America and you don't have to do that either!

    If you have a registry that doesn't inspect, you get every end of the spectrum in terms of quality. Is it a perfect system? of course not, but given the choice between a horse who has two approved parents and a horse that may have been bred from the very best of his breed or the very worst (and I have to figure it out on my own????)...........I'm going with the inspected horse.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    FWIW, Pintopiaffe - I just tried to look up your stallion on your website. The domain in your signature has expired.

    And meanwhile - I am curious to see your stallion's pedigree. Is he listed on Allbreedpedigree.com? What is his name?
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lord+majikjaz

    He was not in RPSI Stallion Book I. He was in RPSI Pony Book I.
    Looks like for 2007 and 2008. If I'm reading the Pony Book stuff correctly he would have needed to complete performance requirements to maintain Pony Book approval.
    Pony Book allows a broader range of breeds.

    All Breed doesn't indcate any ASB blood. It does indicate Pinto/Arab cross blood in the 4th generation.



  17. #17
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    My stallion is Lord Majikjaz. He's in allbreed.

    He was approved in 2006, so is in the following yearbook, and the one after. He's in the SportPony book. I only kept him active for those two years. It is a lot of money that wasn't really forwarding my program.

    Thanks for the website heads-up. I actually have a new host and have been unable to transfer the site. I didn't owe any money, so I don't know why I can't get my domain back. Working on it. I built the whole thing in plain HTML. I don't have the software to redo from scratch, and no way I'm redoing HTML again. The damn domain was bought by someone in Australia. You have to call to deal with them. That ain't happenin' any time soon...
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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  18. #18
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    The difference is what we are talking more about here is 1st/2nd level generation crosses, not true warmbloods who have been carefully blended for hundreds of years for a specific purpose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus
    I would LOVE to not have to take my horses to an inspection as a part of the...now you are allowed to breed...process. I hate it. I think it is restraint of trade. It is political. It is insulting. At a time we have less and less money we have the added cost of inspection. In the beginning the Europeans were more than a little puzzled why we wanted them to come over and pass fail our horses. Those funny Americans. Now they have figured out how to make more money...how to make this process work for them. I worked and studied my whole life to give the decision of where my breeding program will go to someone else. Yet we are not involved in the decisions of where the warmblood will go...it's like taxation without representation. Grrr. Miss Pat.
    Because there are still too many people who don't care and haven't researched breeding some old draft they found down the road to a TB they found at an auction and calling it a warmblood.

    It may be political and insulting, but until people stop trying to label every cross/mutt a WB only to slap a huge price tag on it without even the value of a performance record on the sire or the dam, it's still a neccessary evil IMHO.

    And, as mentioned above, until these American sporthorse/wb type registries get thier head out of thier butts and actually COMMIT to a STANDAND of quality or performance, you better believe I'm going to spend my money on horses who come from a proven system that works - and the Europeans have that nailed down much better then we do in many cases.

    This is not to say there are NO good American horses. I also had an Appaloosa mare several years back who could very well be considered a sport horse by both conformation and performance..... they are out there, indeed. But... there are already venues for such horses - in this case the App Sporthorse Reg. (Can't remember the specific name of it).

    We don't have a "TB Sporthorse Registry" but there are certainly TB breeders breeding for sport vs. racing so what is holding back other 'would be "American breed" sporthorse breeders?
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  19. #19
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    It's not even about whether it's a Warmblood or a "warmblood", it's about the inspection process (which is not specific to WBs, though it's not very common either) and trying to improve the breed as an organization, rather than leaving it up to anybody with horses with a uterus or testicles.

    As mentioned, registries with no "inspection" process other than inspecting that both parents are also registered with that org has far more inferior horses than those worthy of breeding, let alone the cream of the crop breed-worthy.

    IMVHO, having a visual inspection process, let alone the breeding approval process, which in itself adds value to the stallion, puts stud fees at a high enough level that you get rid of the generic backyard breeder who just wants a piece of his beloved mare and likes your pretty stallion. SOs have a responsibility too, and again IMVHO if a SO is going through the time and $$ to have the stallion approved, they are not likely to just allow any ol' MO breed to their boy, because that dilutes the value of the stallion, since as we all know it's the stallion's total fault for all inferior get on the ground
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  20. #20
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    Both registries will take "American" breeds if they meet the qualification criteria. You are saying that they DON'T. That does not mean that they WON'T. Have you presented any horses to the registries mentioned ? If you are breeding sport horse types, then there is no reason that they should not be accepted, unless of course you are not breeding acceptable stock.
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