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  1. #1
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    Feb. 21, 2009
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    Default Feet and effects on back stifles hocks

    Just thought you might find this horse interesting. I see this a lot but not quite this dramatic! This was just a few weeks ago. One of my students shod this mare. The mare had not had her feet done since last July. The old shoes had fallen off. Her heels were very high on the front feet, and the toes broken off short. The toes were very long on the hinds. When she came in she stood all "camped under" all day as we worked on her stable mate .
    We did not get to her until late in the day and every time I looked at her she was standing like that,so I took the Photo opportunity before we shod her just in case she changed the stance after, which I figured she would at least to some extent. .

    She got shod behind that afternoon, trimming the foot to the sole plane and setting the break over back some, with extended heel shoes. The front feet got shod the next morning, trimming off the excess heels and just a simple shoe. The second picture was less than an hour after the front shoes were put on.
    BTW in case anyone has doubts, this horse was NOT stood up by anyone up for either picture. She was just standing there tied to the rail on her own.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  2. #2
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Port Charlotte, FL
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  3. #3
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    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Interesting. I'm almost as impressed by her heft as I am by the change in her stance.



  4. #4
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    Aug. 28, 2006
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    That is a dramatic difference.... she looks sooo much more comfortable.



  5. #5
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    Feb. 21, 2009
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    Yes, I have seen this in a few before. For example "sickle hock" horses that had been that way for years and everyone just thought it was conformation. When wedge pads were added to the hind feet in fifteen minutes they were no longer sickle hocked. But this one was about the most dramatic I have ever encountered. We did discuss with the owner that a bit of exercise and a diet might be in order. As well as not waiting another year before the next shoeing.

    The hoof imbalance can directly back comfort because of the compensating stance.
    If you think about the leg anatomy, in a balanced foot the tendons and ligaments on both sides of the leg (front and back) are supposed to work in harmony. At rest, there should be some kind if equilibrium in the support strutures of the leg.

    On this horses hind legs, the toes were to long or the hoof angle too low (or both) so the DDFT was placed in too much tension. By placing the feet forward, she could relieve some of that tension. Hence the hind foot stance on this mare.

    On the opposite end, the high heels in the front feet were not allowing normal tension in the DDFT at rest.
    Placing the front feet rearward will increase the tension on the DDFT to where it should be.
    Think about the effects of that long term compensating stance on the back, stifles and hocks. The horse can tell you a lot, if we just take a minute to watch them.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
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    Jul. 7, 2010
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    These before and after pictures show very little other than a horse not being held or stood up vrs one that was put into a correct stance. The first shot shows a loose horse (ready to poo) where as the second shows a horse tied(with the farrier right next to it). Anyone involved in any type of halter or in hand work knows what can be done to "correct" a horses stance to make the conformation change. I can do these same before and after shots with all of my horses without doing anything to the hooves-camp them under then stand them up straight. Just looking out to my pasture, I see none of them standing square-does that mean they are all sore? I think not!

    Melanie



  7. #7
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    Feb. 21, 2009
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    The farrier standing who just happened to be standing next to the tied horse is NOT I repeat NOT doing anything except just standing there. The mare was not held, she was tied loosely there on her own and had been there just like that for a while. In no way was this horse asked to stand in any stance. She had been, and was being left alone to stand however she wanted. And in the first picture she was not "ready to poo" .
    She stood like that ALL DAY.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  8. #8
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    Nov. 22, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
    And in the first picture she was not "ready to poo" .
    Dang, I thought she was so relaxed after the trim that she was finally able to have (a) comfortable "movement."



  9. #9
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    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by okcismelhorse View Post
    These before and after pictures show very little other than a horse not being held or stood up vrs one that was put into a correct stance. The first shot shows a loose horse (ready to poo) where as the second shows a horse tied(with the farrier right next to it). Anyone involved in any type of halter or in hand work knows what can be done to "correct" a horses stance to make the conformation change. I can do these same before and after shots with all of my horses without doing anything to the hooves-camp them under then stand them up straight. Just looking out to my pasture, I see none of them standing square-does that mean they are all sore? I think not!

    Melanie
    Your argument is laughable.

    What is so far-fetched about the notion that poor hoof balance influences the stance of a horse? This is common knowledge and has been proven time and time again.

    Ever see a foundered horse? Notice anything about the way they stand? Do you think founder holds a monopoly on horse hoof ailments? Ever see a horse with a DDFT injury? Notice anything different about its preferred stance? Can you think of any other painful hoof conditions?



  10. #10
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    Sep. 25, 2005
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    What a great thread Patty!

    Wow that is a remarkable difference in that mare. It's obvious that she is much more comfortable in the 2nd photo.

    When I started trimming, the thing that popped out at me the most of anything was how dramatic the posture can change from pre-trim to post-trim. It's no wonder horses have chiropractic issues and muscle soreness, problems under saddle, and even temperamental issues. When their entire body is compromised because of the hoof form, there is a great deal of potential for wide-spread pain and soreness. The hoof truly is the foundation of the horse.

    I think some people have a very difficult time distinguishing between POSTURE and CONFORMATION. The two are entirely different.

    The posture your photos shows was described to me as being "goat on a rock" at a clinic I attended. The horse resembles a goat standing with all 4 feet on a rock, or an elephant on a pedestal.

    I've photographed a bunch of these horses over the last few years. Some are uploaded to my site so I'll post them here. You can see the change in the heel/pastern angle in these before/after shots:

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/Comparison1.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/HCaseStudyFronts.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/Comparison5.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/Comparison3.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/TLFComparisonJune2010.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/LTLH Comparison.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/PostureComparisonAmadeus.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/SComparison.jpg

    http://www.hphoofcare.com/GrazingFootComparison.jpg


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by okcismelhorse View Post
    These before and after pictures show very little other than a horse not being held or stood up vrs one that was put into a correct stance. The first shot shows a loose horse (ready to poo) where as the second shows a horse tied(with the farrier right next to it). Anyone involved in any type of halter or in hand work knows what can be done to "correct" a horses stance to make the conformation change. I can do these same before and after shots with all of my horses without doing anything to the hooves-camp them under then stand them up straight. Just looking out to my pasture, I see none of them standing square-does that mean they are all sore? I think not!

    Melanie
    To truly appreciate postural differences pre-trim and post-trim, you can't look at JUST that one snapshot. You have to be there in person and observe the horse for yourself. How do they stand on their own, how do they move. When walked off then halted, what does the halt look like? Square, camped out, camped under? When turned back into the stall, how is their posture while eating hay?

    In all the photos I posted, I did not "set up" any of those photos either before the trim or after it. I just took snapshots of how the horse was standing on their own. Each one had very definite, sustained postural differences from pre-trim, to post-trim, and that is why I posted their photos.

    Do you think an owner is going to be agreeable to letting me "set up" their horse to look as bad as possible for the "before" photos? Doubtful. And I can promise you that I have never done that.

    The photo only shows one split second in time. But when you are actually present for those trims and see the entire picture before and after, you get a much more complete story.



  12. #12
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    Default

    No argument on a good trim making a horse more comfortable.

    But, in the "after" shot, look at the expression on the horse's face. She is glaring down at the mess out of the corner of her eye, like an indignant voluptuous princess, thinking, "Why can't one of the servants find a broom and clean up this mess so I don't have to stand here all parked out?" You can tell she is used to being "served."



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    Obviously the horse was more comfortable after it pooped!
    Unfortunately the same cannot be said for you



  14. #14
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    Sep. 2, 2004
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    Patty Stiller.... The horse can tell you a lot, if we just take a minute to watch them.
    Yep horses can but pictures of their bodies and feet showing "Before" and "After" can be deceiving"..........



  15. #15
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    Jul. 7, 2010
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    I am not saying a good trim can not make a horse feel better but what I am saying is one can not judge how comfortable a horse is by a still picture alone. This "proof" that the horse feels better is in my mind. The sheer weight of the horse would make it feel uncomfortable

    Just look at the hind quarters in the before shot-the gluteal fasica is engaged and looks like the horse is getting ready to step out to me (also the other leg is already lifted). Where as the after shot shows a stretched "head of tricep" clearly being stretched beyond normal standing. The horse is still camped in the front end and over at the knee to me as well-signs of pain.

    Yes I see all kinds of these silly before and after shots online as proof of how well the trimmer or farrier has done with huge write up's on this and that when in fact most are fabricated. It's not a new concept really-halter horses and Arab's have been doing it a long time



  16. #16
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Back stifles as opposed to front stifles or are you talkng about the horse's back?



  17. #17
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    Feb. 21, 2009
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    Yep horses can but pictures of their bodies and feet showing "Before" and "After" can be deceiving"..........
    The photographer (me) was there all day to see that the before and after stance was constant, not just a momentary thing. Hence my breaking out the camera in the first place. I did not plan this, nor did I set it up. It was just something that was there and very interesting so I documented it. I had no idea if the horse would straighten up that much after the shoeing, because some do and some do not. This one did.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  18. #18
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    Yes I see all kinds of these silly before and after shots online as proof of how well the trimmer or farrier has done with huge write up's on this and that when in fact most are fabricated. It's not a new concept really-halter horses and Arab's have been doing it a long time
    This case was/is not in any way fabricated.
    How unfortunate that you (whoever you are) can not accept that sometimes someone actually has something real, and educational to offer up for thoughtful discussion.
    And also unfortunate that it seems whenever anyone on the internet wants to try to falsely accuse someone else, the accuser hides behind anonymity.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  19. #19
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    Just look at the hind quarters in the before shot-the gluteal fasica is engaged and looks like the horse is getting ready to step out to me (also the other leg is already lifted). Where as the after shot shows a stretched "head of tricep" clearly being stretched beyond normal standing. The horse is still camped in the front end and over at the knee to me as well-signs of pain.
    Yes, pain. In her feet. And all the other stresses in the body as a result of the compensating stance.
    Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
    Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
    www.hoofcareonline.com



  20. #20
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    May. 3, 2004
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    Patty,
    I am sure you are aware that there was a recent incident involving a farrier presentation and "before and after" pictures. I would suggest that there are limits to the value we (as a farrier community) should place on this type of presentation, as the findings are subject to the integrity and accuracy of the presenter. I am not questioning your integrity, but one could easily put a picture of a horse in any posture and claim that it is a result of the hoofcare.
    Last edited by reillyshoe; Jul. 7, 2010 at 09:56 PM.



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