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  1. #1
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    In response to Portia I have chosen to separate Bill Moroney from the other thread because it would be a tangent to spoil the good dialog existing about what I think is a much more important topic.

    I think that whether or not we show respect for those convicted of crimes is a personal evalauation as to who we choose to be friends with and with whom we want to be associated.

    This is a letter which I have sent to John Straussburger explaining my position about an affiliate.

    1. I do not believe there is any urgency that there be an affiliate selected right now.
    2. It is not the who but the way I object to as it has been handled.
    3. I am not an Officer or Member of the Board of the NHJA and have become involved only because I think the whole situation was handled badly and they have not yet made their presentation.
    4. I do deeply believe in the right of the membership to have a representative and democratic association in which they can have confidence AND have the right to express and opinion.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dear Mr. Straussburger,



    I regret your editorial endorsing the selection of the USHJA as the Official Affiliate for the Hunter Discipline. I would have hoped that with your experience you could see past the packaging of this Association which is nothing but smoke and mirrors and that it would defeat everything we as Members have all worked for during the past few years regarding our rights to know and be heard.

    Do you realize that all 28,000 hunter members of the USEF would be represented on their Board of Directors by one seat? We have 12 Zones with diverse geographical and economic problems and the all are in the hands one person to present or defend. All the other seats are appointments by the President of USHJA.

    I believe that your rush to judgment was premature and you were carried away by a 5 hour glitzy presentation with no substance and a lot of “we will, we plan, we might and we will evolve”. It was a promise of a perfect world that was all things to all people and varied depending on the listeners.

    I have attached for your information suggestions to the USEF Board of Directors regarding what I think would be necessary criteria to make a selection. While these may be altered they do set in place some requirement for accountability by any affiliate to the members they seek to represent.

    I think we need to learn from our mistakes with the NHJC which also made a great many promises and although all the Zones were represented had no accountability to the members or the Federation.

    I believe that Mr.Moroney took advantage of his position and has a serious conflict of interest by making his proposal without any notification to any other Associations that this was even on the Agenda and never mind that it was on a fast track.
    • I believe that Mr. Moroney and the USHJA have taken advantage of his position which is a direct conflict of interest by sending out emails with the effort of the USEF and their undue prejudicial influence.
    • I believe it was a conflict of interest when he was granted at expense to the USEF 5 hours for a presentation with the projectors and rooms.
    • I believe it was a conflict of interest when Sue Pinckney as a director for hunters gave him her expertise and skills while on the payroll of the USEF for the Convention.
    • I believe it was unethical for this whole issue to be raised without proper information to all who want to apply; and then condemn them for not being prepared.

    I believe it was wrong for the whole presentation to have been made until after there were proper criteria accepted by the Board of Directors published and made available for all those interested to apply, proper deadlines and opportunity for each to make an equal presentation.

    We still do not know what the financial responsibilities will be, how the USEF plans to have this Affiliate function and under what terms and conditions they will monitor and supervise their activities and require accountability. Will Membership be mandatory or reciprocal? Will there be Financial accountability and over-sight by USEF? If so how?

    This attachment was sent to the Board of Directors with the sincere hope that they will consider the conditions and terms by which to define a Breed/Discipline Affiliate that will replace the National hunter Committee in management of the whole discipline.

    I hope they will then publish that criterion so that any and all National Associations may have the opportunity to read and comply, or apply for the position. We have had only one Executive Committee Meeting available to the members. Certainly, if they feel it is too expensive to web cast they could still produce an Audio CD of the meetings for the members who wish to hear it in the Media Library.

    If the Federation wishes to assure the members that Mr.Moroney has had no undue influence on his behalf this is the most functional way to divert the antagonism of the members and keep the record open. I, by the way disagree that it was not worth the investment because not enough people listened; the fact is as you know there were several who listened and then gave ongoing reports to the thousands of people on your Forums.

    Anything that builds the confidence of the members who pay the bills, support the shows and donate their money is money well spent.

    Yours truly,

    Vikki Karcher Siegel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  2. #2
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    In response to Portia I have chosen to separate Bill Moroney from the other thread because it would be a tangent to spoil the good dialog existing about what I think is a much more important topic.

    I think that whether or not we show respect for those convicted of crimes is a personal evalauation as to who we choose to be friends with and with whom we want to be associated.

    This is a letter which I have sent to John Straussburger explaining my position about an affiliate.

    1. I do not believe there is any urgency that there be an affiliate selected right now.
    2. It is not the who but the way I object to as it has been handled.
    3. I am not an Officer or Member of the Board of the NHJA and have become involved only because I think the whole situation was handled badly and they have not yet made their presentation.
    4. I do deeply believe in the right of the membership to have a representative and democratic association in which they can have confidence AND have the right to express and opinion.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dear Mr. Straussburger,



    I regret your editorial endorsing the selection of the USHJA as the Official Affiliate for the Hunter Discipline. I would have hoped that with your experience you could see past the packaging of this Association which is nothing but smoke and mirrors and that it would defeat everything we as Members have all worked for during the past few years regarding our rights to know and be heard.

    Do you realize that all 28,000 hunter members of the USEF would be represented on their Board of Directors by one seat? We have 12 Zones with diverse geographical and economic problems and the all are in the hands one person to present or defend. All the other seats are appointments by the President of USHJA.

    I believe that your rush to judgment was premature and you were carried away by a 5 hour glitzy presentation with no substance and a lot of “we will, we plan, we might and we will evolve”. It was a promise of a perfect world that was all things to all people and varied depending on the listeners.

    I have attached for your information suggestions to the USEF Board of Directors regarding what I think would be necessary criteria to make a selection. While these may be altered they do set in place some requirement for accountability by any affiliate to the members they seek to represent.

    I think we need to learn from our mistakes with the NHJC which also made a great many promises and although all the Zones were represented had no accountability to the members or the Federation.

    I believe that Mr.Moroney took advantage of his position and has a serious conflict of interest by making his proposal without any notification to any other Associations that this was even on the Agenda and never mind that it was on a fast track.
    • I believe that Mr. Moroney and the USHJA have taken advantage of his position which is a direct conflict of interest by sending out emails with the effort of the USEF and their undue prejudicial influence.
    • I believe it was a conflict of interest when he was granted at expense to the USEF 5 hours for a presentation with the projectors and rooms.
    • I believe it was a conflict of interest when Sue Pinckney as a director for hunters gave him her expertise and skills while on the payroll of the USEF for the Convention.
    • I believe it was unethical for this whole issue to be raised without proper information to all who want to apply; and then condemn them for not being prepared.

    I believe it was wrong for the whole presentation to have been made until after there were proper criteria accepted by the Board of Directors published and made available for all those interested to apply, proper deadlines and opportunity for each to make an equal presentation.

    We still do not know what the financial responsibilities will be, how the USEF plans to have this Affiliate function and under what terms and conditions they will monitor and supervise their activities and require accountability. Will Membership be mandatory or reciprocal? Will there be Financial accountability and over-sight by USEF? If so how?

    This attachment was sent to the Board of Directors with the sincere hope that they will consider the conditions and terms by which to define a Breed/Discipline Affiliate that will replace the National hunter Committee in management of the whole discipline.

    I hope they will then publish that criterion so that any and all National Associations may have the opportunity to read and comply, or apply for the position. We have had only one Executive Committee Meeting available to the members. Certainly, if they feel it is too expensive to web cast they could still produce an Audio CD of the meetings for the members who wish to hear it in the Media Library.

    If the Federation wishes to assure the members that Mr.Moroney has had no undue influence on his behalf this is the most functional way to divert the antagonism of the members and keep the record open. I, by the way disagree that it was not worth the investment because not enough people listened; the fact is as you know there were several who listened and then gave ongoing reports to the thousands of people on your Forums.

    Anything that builds the confidence of the members who pay the bills, support the shows and donate their money is money well spent.

    Yours truly,

    Vikki Karcher Siegel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  3. #3
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    Psst... Snowbird. It's "Strassburger."



  4. #4
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    Thank you Ma!

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  5. #5
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    Snowbird, it seems to have escaped you that my objections to your comments on the other thread have nothing to do with the substance of the USHJA, NHJA, or the selection of an affiliate.

    My objection and statement that you should apologize -- not to me, but to Bill Maroney and the USHJA -- was due to your linking of his name to "horse killers" and "child molesters." You took a low, uncalled-for swipe at an individual, and I called you on it.

    You're perfectly capable and free to make whatever points you want or think you can about the substantive issues. But that's not at all what my objection was about.
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry



  6. #6
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    Snowbird, I wish I had enough time to go toe to toe with you on the USHJA and NHJA issue, but having a job, horses and a family prevents me from turning the BB into a full time occupation.

    I have nothing against the NHJA and certainly nothing against Gary Baker, but the NHJA has had their chance (and a very long one) and I don't get the feeling that most people are very excited by what they have accomplished. Additionally, the NHJA has historically been dominated by horse show managers, and that I do find to be a conflict of interest. I believe our governing body should not be run by the same group that benefits financially from the horse shows. It would be a situation of no checks and balances. I think the USHJA sounds exciting, and I for one would like to see them get a chance, IF they meet the criteria and specs designed by the USEF. I also don't have a problem with a little good natured debate about the two entities, but I have had enough of your bomb throwing. Moroney, as you call him, is not a bad guy (even you have said this a number of times) so why do you persist in starting these threads making it out as if they are doing something truly evil? Please give it a rest!



  7. #7
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    Portia, there is really no need for further dialog. I didn't put Moroney in the same scene, it was Lauriep who put him there and I responded in the order of importance to me simply as issues of fair play.


    Scarlett, I too wish you had more time because there is no better way for me to clarify my thinking than to examine an idea from another perspective. I simply steal the time that should be sleeping time for projects of concern. At my age there is no further point in worrying about getting my beauty sleep. The time for doing nothing is too quickly approaching and I don't want to waste time or energy by not being useful with the time I have left.

    As to NHJA it started out as a Show Managers Association and that is true but by the end of it's first year it had altered course into a Members Association since that is what was needed. It has been Affiliated with the AHSA/USAE/USEF for 15 years and simply functioned as a lobbying group for the hunter and jumper people. It continued to do that even after the AHSA opted to try the format which led to the now defunct NHJC.

    I must say that my enthusiasm for NHJA started when I learned that Gary Baker was responsible for the changes to the Election System for the Zones to have dedicated seats as an assurance of equal representation not only geographically but also by competition level. That was when I realized his dedication to the principles that many of us had worked on the past 4 years.

    When NHJC was introduced it sounded wonderful and it's demise resulted from the same concept that somehow the unrecognized and unsanctioned horse shows and the exhibitors who refused to accept the responsibilities of Membership should have an equal place in our Hunter Affiliate. This comes from a long standing dispute as to exactly what are the grass roots?

    My objections have nothing to do with a choice for either side but rather the methods that got us to this place because it is too reminiscent of the formation of the NHJC and the way it sprang full blown onto the scene.

    As you can see in the above letter my criticism has not to do with the USHJA or Bill Moroney personally or Andrew Ellis with whom I've had several lively debates. It has to do with what I have always believed a fair and equal system with rules and specifications that everyone can understand and follow with an honest choice of course.

    I have for four/five years now been for our Right to Know and our Right to Vote. When you read the By-Laws of the NHJA and when you read about their plan of operation and if you still feel that the USHJA is your choice that's fine and maybe they will merge or maybe there can be two associations all those are things still open for resolution. Perhaps, we should not have to choose.

    Perhaps there are many of our hunter people who prefer an autocratic system where everyone is appointed by the President and the other half is willing to gamble on democracy. None of that can be determined until the USEF determines what exactly their responsibility will continue to be and what are the terms and conditions that this new entity must follow.

    Once that is determined and published and adequate time is allowed for development of plans there may be four or even six different associations that would be willing to comply with offers to benefit us all as hunter people.

    Then perhaps we will either vote with our checks or get a chance to vote for which one suits us and each will make a presentation. I think it is illogical when there was only one presentation to say that's the one.

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  8. #8
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
    Portia, there is really no need for further dialog. I didn't put Moroney in the same scene, it was Lauriep who put him there and I responded in the order of importance to me simply as issues of fair play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, lauriep mentioned him... to irk you, I would imagine. It was you, however, who took the ball and ran with it. You took the opportunity to sensationalize what you perceive as his wrongdoings by comparing them to the wrongdoings of horse murderers and sexual offenders.



  9. #9
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    Snowbird, it's Bill Maroney, not Moroney. Or is it a childish insult, designed to prove how much better NHJA is?



  10. #10
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    Portrock I wouldn't be that petty, No one ever corrected me and I've been spelling it that way. So thank you very much I appreciate the information and will try not to make the mistake again.

    But, then at my age I'm entitled to be forgiven for sessions of senility. It isn't nice for you young'uns to pick on us old folks for small errors and then expect us to forgive big errors in you youngsters.

    In case you didn't understand I don't know if NHJA is better; what I object to is the playing field was not equal and fair. I understand that Tom Struzzeri was interested too, and who knows who else once we find out what the rules are going to be. Do you think its fair for USHJA to have all the benefits of the USEF at our expense and no one else knows about it?

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  11. #11
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    You have been trying to sell this POV for a couple of months now, since the convention. So far, I haven't seen a single person voice agreement with you. Perhaps it is time to move on?

    Laurie
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  12. #12
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    Based on your posts you seem to have a very limited circle of acquaintances in a particular bracket. On the other hand I have found there is a lot of support from people who do believe in democracy and the right to know and the right to vote.

    However, you seem to miss the issue which is not who is the choice but rather, whether or not the playing field is and has been equal and fair.

    I have always had this weird concept left over I am sure from my youth that rules were rules for everyone and that an Educational Association needed to be very careful not to infringe on the rights of anyone. Even, little people who are just not important enough to worry about.

    I think you may hear from the silent majority before this is over.

    Battle Scarred Veteran



  13. #13
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    My friends, debate and difference of opinion is a.) what our country is based on b.) a fun and healthy exercise of our brain power, that in this day and age we find it increasingly difficult to exercise... this is all good.
    Do not get mental because someone makes a typo, or doesn't agree with you. Don' make petty issues the topic instead of what we really need, enjoy and want to address.
    Now (dust...dust...) I will get off my soap box and let the games continue. My efforts are as well self centered... I don't have time to read 1000 threads to find out why you are all talking badly about Billy Moroney. I personally just find it interesting that he has become such a player because he happened to have the good fortune to be in the right place/time to get hired to try to keep Paige Johnson on the center of a pony at that time in her career, and now he heads committees and has you all getting crazed about his erudite decision making. PLEASE... let it be said... I have no issue w/ Mr. Maroney (or Mr. Moronoy for that matter...) It sometimes just blows my mind on how people get from place A. to place B.... No offence Billy...



  14. #14
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    IMHO I am really tired of the attitude of "just hand over your money and shut up!" that is prevelent in so many organizations, and not just horse-oriented ones. I have put in many volunteer hours in different organizations (non-equestrian)at the national level in the past, and have found that the Movers and Shakers don't listen to "the little people" anywhere you go. It takes open meetings and direct voting by members to give any voice to those who aren't at the top. Unfortunately, we are arm-twisted financially into joining these equestrian organizations if we want to participate, but don't have any say in how our dollars are spent. Is it really such a horrible thought that we might have some influence in the organization? I'm sure I'll just get slapped down for even opening my mouth here - I should know better, but it's all part of the whole "don't buck the Important people in the sport" thing that really ticks me off.



  15. #15
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    Let's get one simple thing straight. The spelling of the name of the USHJA leader is MORONEY. That's the way it is spelled in the USEF Roster of Officials.



  16. #16
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
    I think you may hear from the silent majority before this is over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If a silent majority falls in the woods, does anyone hear it?

    Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
    In case you didn't understand I don't know if NHJA is better; what I object to is the playing field was not equal and fair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Have you read Linda Allen's article in the Chronicle (2/20/04)?
    Quote:"The challenge put to the NHJC's leaders was to take the head start provided by this instant creation and use it to develop a business plan for transformation into an independent affiliate organization that equaled the other affiliates. Seven years, and several million dollars, later, the NHJC was not much closer to meeting that challenge than it had been at the outset.
    Wrangling between the NHJC's leaders and their 'parents' was continual, centering around the NHJC's desire for immediate and complete authority over the disciplines while retaining access to funding via the federation for the foreseeable future." End of quote.
    You are right, the playing field is not level. One organization obviously had all the benefits at our expense. Like, seven years and several million dollars!



  18. #18
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    I am a steward and have taken a sit back and wait stance on these issues, however, I am a member of both groups - NHJA and USHJA. I know Billy Moroney personally quite well and find him to be as upstanding a man in the horse world that I know. And, as a steward, I know a lot of people who push the limits of the rules all the time. And, Gary Baker is just as upstanding as is Billy. I have the same feelings for him as I do for Billy. If anyone is attacking these people personally, that is a huge mistake. Of course, both groups have their own agenda, but it is now up to both groups to present their agenda to USEF for them to make their decision as to who will become the H/J affiliate. If you want to support one or the other organization, that's fine. But I chose to wait it out, see just who is picked for that affiliate, then work hard to support the chosen group to attain the goals as they present them. I usually don't speak to these topics, but I am so tired of the constant bickering and the posts that are so negative. Don't you all realize that USEF is working on it and will make a decision in July. Certain of you didn't want USEF to make a decision at the convention, and they didn't. Now you bicker about the fact that, supposedly, one group has more information in front of USEF than the other. Just how do you know that that is true. I think we need to give the powers at USEF some credit for being smart enough to figure out just which group will be the best to be the affiliate and go with that with our support. I know I will certainly give all my efforts to the group chosen, whether it is Gary's or Billy's. I would be proud to work for either one.



  19. #19
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    Nicely stated, BAB!



  20. #20
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    Out of ignorance, a question...

    Will those who pay H/J discipline fees on their USEF memberships have a right to VOTE for which organization, or if they want either or any, to represent them?

    If not...well...doesn't this issue of choice become somewhat moot?



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