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  1. #1
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    Feb. 11, 2009
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    Default buying made horses?

    After Nartan was bought for Katherine Bateson, I started wondering about the point of dressage competition.

    I believe that 'dressage' translates into meaning 'training' but Nartan was not trained by an American. Yet he could 'represent' the US at the WEG. Specifically, what does he 'represent?'

    I've been wondering if dressage competitions would be more meaningful it there was a requirement that the rider had trained the horse themselves for a certain period of time? Or a requirement that the horse had at least been trained by someone from the country they represent?

    I'm interested to know what others think of this. I know it's gone on for a long time and is certainly legal to buy a made horse. I would also like to say for the record that Katherine is lovely and my question isn't about her-just an example.



  2. #2
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    Feb. 19, 2001
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    Steffen Peters' Ravel was trained to Grand Prix (by Edward Gal), as was Florriano. Courtney's horse Mythilus (sp?) was also trained to Grand Prix before she got it, I think Robert Dover had several trained horses bought for him and so on.

    But I get your point, just saying that it's nothing new.



  3. #3
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    Speaking as somebody of no great importance or repute, the whole point of working with a horse is to create an enjoyable and trustworthy ride, and then enjoy it. I would rather not have to accommodate the foibles/results of another persons efforts.

    When competing at the highest levels this indulgence is not always possible.
    Time is money and most of these decisions are made by owners, not riders. We know these people can train horses up to Grand Prix but scores are based on what a judge sees in a very few minutes and those are the skills riders are rewarded for. A good rider can make a horse look spectacular, just as a bad one can make them look terrible. I don't see how the requirement you are putting forward would make any difference.
    Last edited by Equibrit; Jun. 13, 2010 at 01:26 PM.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  4. #4
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    Just because it came trained to GP, doesn't mean you can RIDE IT to GP. The partnership still has to develop.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibex View Post
    Just because it came trained to GP, doesn't mean you can RIDE IT to GP. The partnership still has to develop.
    Absolutely.

    So, how long before it is a partnership? A year? a month?

    Are dressage 'tests' about how well one can ride someone else's training?



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Absolutely.

    So, how long before it is a partnership? A year? a month?

    Are dressage 'tests' about how well one can ride someone else's training?
    Until they start scoring training methods - then yes.
    If you took the argument to it's ultimate conclusion, we would all have to ride horses we had bred and R Dover wouldn't be able to coach Canadians.
    Last edited by Equibrit; Jun. 13, 2010 at 02:22 PM.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  7. #7
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    Life is short. Do what you want to do and don't worry about the railbirds.

    Some people would rather put their energies into refining the partnership with a trained horse and some people would rather train from green upwards.

    Some people do some of each at different points in their lives.

    MEH.

    Live and let live.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    So, how long before it is a partnership? A year? a month?
    Are dressage 'tests' about how well one can ride someone else's training?
    Well, partnerships develop at different rates between different horses and riders. Some come together quickly, some slowly, some never.

    All competition tests are about how well a specific person can ride a specific horse in a specific way on a specific day. I think it is harder to take over someone else's basic training and move forward immediately with that horse than to bring one along yourself and know all the quirks. It is a complement to the horse's prior rider/trainer and to the one taking on the ride.

    The great Mark Todd on more than one occasion took a catch ride horse cleanly through XC at Badminton ****, one of the toughest courses in the world. Was he riding someone else's training to get on a horse less than 5 times and take on such a challenge with success? Absolutely. I'm quite sure the owners and support team and normal rider who had logged so much time into the horse were pleased to send it on to compete in spite of the issues the normal rider faced. Now, this was an international competition but not representing a nation.

    For the Olympics or WEGs, are there not qualification competitions? If the person has been partnered with the horse long enough to go through the qualifications with that horse, wouldn't that make it a partnership rather than buying a ride? It sure does not take long to unravel training if you are not doing things well.

    I think competition in any discipline, especially at the pro and upper levels, is not quite the same sort of develop out education, harmony, and relationship that we see in ammy and non-competitive riders--and I am NOT making a case that one is better or worse than the other. Just in it for different goals.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equus View Post
    Steffen Peters' Ravel was trained to Grand Prix (by Edward Gal
    THAT'S interesting...I didn't know that.



  10. #10
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    Default bear with me-

    Eileen: I think what you say it true.

    I'm wondering if it anyone thinks it would be a more meaningful thing to test someone's training of a horse?

    For example, in the case of Nartan, a non-American has trained and campaigned the horse with great success. If Katherine takes him to the WEG and does well, does that mean anything about the superiority of US dressage training?

    On the other hand, if it was required for American riders to represent the US with American-trained horses, wouldn't that say more about the quality of US dressage?



  11. #11
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    Every time a rider gets on a horse, they are training.

    There's no such thing as a push-button horse, anymore than there is a perfect rider.

    Time and again, a horse that wasn't particularly "famous" competitively under one rider has become amazing under another. (Ravel for example.)

    I suspect the reverse has been true often enough, too, though I don't know of any particular examples.

    As much as I'd like to see a great system for early training in the U.S., I don't really think it's fair to say that a horse trained to PSG is going to be an automatic success under any decent rider at the international levels.

    That said, there is truly a special sort of pride in a horse like Brentina, but I don't think it should be a requirement for competition. Personally.



  12. #12
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    Personally, I think it is more upsetting when a trainer actually warms a horse up at a show, and the rider jumps on at the last minute and rides the test.

    THAT means NOTHING about the rider, in my opinion except that they have enough money to pay someone to do that. I really think that should be abolished and make the rider the only one who can school the horse during the show.

    I also don't think 2 riders should be able to share a horse at a recognized competition. Just not fair.
    \"I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.\"--Pogo



  13. #13
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    As an amateur who will never get to WEG, but managed to ride my first PSG test at the age of 56, I have neither the time nor the guts to start a young horse and bring it along. So when I recently shopped for a new one, I wanted 3rd-4th level training/show experience. We are now starting to build that relationship.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Absolutely.

    So, how long before it is a partnership? A year? a month? Depends on how good of a rider you are and how tough a horse it is...

    Are dressage 'tests' about how well one can ride someone else's training?
    No - they are about how well you can CORRECTLY ride and show a horse (which may or may not have been correctly trained).
    Sandy in Fla.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary in Area 1 View Post
    Personally, I think it is more upsetting when a trainer actually warms a horse up at a show, and the rider jumps on at the last minute and rides the test.

    THAT means NOTHING about the rider, in my opinion except that they have enough money to pay someone to do that. I really think that should be abolished and make the rider the only one who can school the horse during the show.

    I also don't think 2 riders should be able to share a horse at a recognized competition. Just not fair.
    Meh, this doesn't bother me much. I guess I just got used to it growing up riding saddle seat. We didn't always warm up a horse for the customer, but sometimes we did. If it allows the horse and rider to have a better show experience, I don't see much of a problem.

    People who have a horse in full time training already often have an advantage over a similarly capable ammy that does it on their own. I'm not sure it narrows the gap that much if you ban the trainer from riding the horse at the show.

    I also think it is very beneficial for a trainer to be able to school a horse at a show. I see where you're coming from that it can be a bit "unfair," but then maybe we shouldn't allow professional training at all? Or you could have classes like they do at ASB shows that are OTR - owner/trainer/rider, meaning the horse is not to have been in professional training since January 1 of that show season.

    In a perfect world, I guess you could afford multiple shows so your trainer could ride/work your horse at a show, then at the next one, you could do it yourself. That can get expensive though. Same goes for sharing horses at a show - it helps people afford the show by splitting costs. There may be some benefit to the less capable rider if they're sharing with a better rider, but that's also likely a disadvantage to the better rider = )

    If a pro getting on to warm up a horse keeps the horse happier and the ammy safer (or makes them just feel less nervous), I don't see much problem with it. Sure, perhaps the horse/rider should just stay at home if they aren't to the point they can do it all by themselves, but you can't learn everything you need to know about showing by staying home - and what fun is that anyway?



  16. #16
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    well, some people can afford to buy a made horse (or have it bought for them) others have to do it themselves.

    I see it as reward, for all the greenies they had to get on to earn there spurs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bort84 View Post
    Meh, this doesn't bother me much. I guess I just got used to it growing up riding saddle seat. We didn't always warm up a horse for the customer, but sometimes we did. If it allows the horse and rider to have a better show experience, I don't see much of a problem.

    People who have a horse in full time training already often have an advantage over a similarly capable ammy that does it on their own. I'm not sure it narrows the gap that much if you ban the trainer from riding the horse at the show.

    I also think it is very beneficial for a trainer to be able to school a horse at a show. I see where you're coming from that it can be a bit "unfair," but then maybe we shouldn't allow professional training at all?

    In a perfect world, I guess you could afford multiple shows so your trainer could ride/work your horse at a show, then at the next one, you could do it yourself. That can get expensive though. Same goes for sharing horses at a show - it helps people afford the show by splitting costs. There may be some benefit to the less capable rider if they're sharing with a better rider, but that's also likely a disadvantage to the better rider = )

    If a pro getting on to warm up a horse keeps the horse happier and the ammy safer (or makes them just feel less nervous), I don't see much problem with it. Sure, perhaps the horse/rider should just stay at home if they aren't to the point they can do it all by themselves, but you can't learn everything you need to know about showing by staying home - and what fun is that anyway?
    I agree 100%. I am this nervous ammy...and my trainer usually warms my horse up for me before my test. It helps me to relax because I can see that my horse is already focused and listening and not about to have a nervous meltdown. If he does have a meltdown, my trainer will be the one sitting it, not me!

    Though I am proud of myself, I went to my first recognized show on Friday and warmed my horse up myself, too. Big step for me!



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnoIsMyHorse View Post
    I agree 100%. I am this nervous ammy...and my trainer usually warms my horse up for me before my test. It helps me to relax because I can see that my horse is already focused and listening and not about to have a nervous meltdown. If he does have a meltdown, my trainer will be the one sitting it, not me!

    Though I am proud of myself, I went to my first recognized show on Friday and warmed my horse up myself, too. Big step for me!
    Yay! Congratulations! Sometimes you just have to do it once to see that it's not that bad, haha.

    We used to have a couple of riders that literally took anti-anxiety meds when they'd show because they'd get so nervous. There were a couple of others that liked to have one glass of wine before they went in the ring to "loosen up." There are some horses I sure wish we could give a drink before they go in the ring = )



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary in Area 1 View Post
    Personally, I think it is more upsetting when a trainer actually warms a horse up at a show, and the rider jumps on at the last minute and rides the test.

    THAT means NOTHING about the rider, in my opinion except that they have enough money to pay someone to do that. I really think that should be abolished and make the rider the only one who can school the horse during the show.

    I also don't think 2 riders should be able to share a horse at a recognized competition. Just not fair.
    I am one that has had my trainer warm my horse up for me before my test. I have also had my trainer warm up my horse and show the horse first before I get on. I have also done it all myself.

    My mare is just finishing up rehabbing from a torn suspensory in her right front. We are still not to the point of turning her out or lunging her. So basically, she is pretty full of herself. So yes, right now, I have my trainer warm her up before I get on to ride my test. Depending on how she is, I also have my trainer get on and warm her up before I take a lesson.

    Expensive.... yes!!
    Cheaper than another stem cell transplant.... absolutely!!!
    Worth every penny... you bet!!!
    Do all the other riders at the show know why my trainer is riding first.... no!!!
    Do I care...no!!!
    Is life fair.... no.



  20. #20
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    "Keeping" a horse at that level requires far more than just riding a finished animal.



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