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  1. #1
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    Default Contender- Doubling Up??

    I was told a few years ago to be careful not to have too much Calypso II (sire of Contender) in a pedigree. The reason they gave was a possibility of hind suspensory issues, if memory serves. Then someone else told me you don't want to double Calypso II because it causes weak and swayed backs.

    Is there any actual science here, or just a few anecdotal cases, and what is ACTUALLY the issue with having Calypso II on the top and bottom of a pedigree, especially several generations back? Curious to hear any thoughts.

    ETA: Changed thread title to Contender to see if anyone else wants to chime in. Everyone is rather vehement in their opinions, but yet NOT ONE person can tell me WHY, or what the actual problem is, or give specific examples. I've heard so many things it's hard to know what to believe. I suppose I may just try to contact the Verband directly if possible. Very curious. TIA!
    Last edited by buschkn; Jun. 3, 2010 at 11:08 PM. Reason: changed title
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

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  2. #2
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    Default

    I've been told by a couple of breeders that I really trust to never line breed on Contender, and they mentioned the same issues, so maybe it is the Calypso II? I was curious on doubling up on a different line and I searched through the Holsteiner stallions on the verband site to get an idea if anyone else had done the same type of breeding. I think that is a good start to finding out if it is an "accepted" breeding cross, or not. If you don't see any approved stallions with the same "type" of breeding, there could be a good reason why.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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  3. #3
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    usually now the calypso brothers are pretty far back in pedigrees due to how long it has been since they were around.

    it would certainly give me pause but i wouldn't make any absolute statements about it.... it would depend on the proposed pedigree and how much calypso ii there was and where. if it were perfectly sex-balanced with a single shot 5 generations back on each side and everything else looks good and it was otherwise a cross i really wanted to try, i'd probably give it a go.

    breeders in holstein have found difficulties with linebreeding to contender in many instances. i also know of some instances which have not suffered, but this is something i would be more careful to avoid. and yes, i would agree the contender issue comes at least in part from calypso ii.



  4. #4
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    bump for changes made
    Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan

    http://www.halcyon-hill.com



  5. #5
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    Aug. 3, 2006
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    Default

    Calypso was not a modern or refined stallion. He was over 17 hands and what we would now call oldfashioned or heavy type. It does not make sense - if you are breeding for a modern type horse to double up on heavy, close up in the predigree - other faults aside, you may get a horse that is very big, and too heavy by todays standards.



  6. #6
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    The following quote may prove helpful to you:

    According to Thomas Mohr, the director of the Maas J. Hell stallion station, like all good stallions, Contender needs 'his' type of mare:
    “He has proven what he has for the breed, he gives lots of power. He is the sire of many horses on the international showjumping scene. He is a great stallion, you either like him or you don’t like him, but he has set his footmark.He is comparable to Grannus in Oldenburg, or Pilot in Westphalia, but he needs a special mare, a blood type mare. Each stallion needs a special mare.”
    “That’s the problem with the hobby breeders – if they have a good mare, they want to breed her to Contender, but everybody knows it doesn’t fit, because the mare is heavy. That’s the difference with the older breeders, you can say to them, ‘don’t do that’, and they take the advice.”


    In photos/videos of Calypso II he does have one pretty "posty" hind leg with a dropped fetlock, but the other hind looks okay. Maybe it's just a photographic thing and the other hind was weakened as well, but I'm inclined to think injury is the culprit if only one himd was truly affected. Does anyone know his history? Did he ever injure his right hind?
    Contender doesn't have as much hind end angulation as I prefer, but his relative straightness may have come from Mama, I don't know. Regardless, he's an amazing stallion who's earned the right to pass on his genetics!
    I'm eager to hear from any who may have had direct contact with one or both of these stallions.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
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  7. #7
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    The question is why ? With all the stallions in the world , it doesn't need to be done , so why do it ?

    Contender is one of the worlds best stallions. He has his issues in the rear end , especially in hock conformation and he passes this on.

    He is down on his pastern because he is 400 years old and has jumped on the phanthom thousands of times. I see Contender every year , as I stay where he lives , and every year he is the same ol gentleman. Always willing to take your apple in exchange for a photograph.

    It is known that doubling up close on Calypso II can generate a dropped topline. I have personally seen one that was bred here by Linaro / Caletto II / Calypso II that was simply herrendous. It was not known to have the same affect with the doubling of Calypso I . According to some old breeders , it supposedly comes from somwhere in their motherline but only manifests itself in Calypso II. It doesn't always happen.......look at the approved stallion Coolidge , who is by Clinton I / Contender . This is a beautiful young stallion.



  8. #8
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    NO intention to be argumentative here, but if Contender is dropped in his pasterns it's not from breeding or jumping. A horse's "suspensory apparatus" (all the soft tissues responsible for supporting it's great weight with proper joint angulation) is made to stand up to considerable abuse and there are plenty of older warmblood stallions that have led busy jumping and breeding careers without suffering suspensory breakdown. One example I have LOTS of personal experience with is Aristos B. He's a HEAVY boned Dutch who has mounted the phantom COUNTLESS times and who also had a significant show career. He just turned 28 on May 19. NO dropping in his fetlocks whatsoever. His hocks are showing a bit of arthritis, but he still has beautiful angulation in all his front and hind joints. In his heyday we often collected him twice daily and on occasion a third go 'round wasn't unheard of!
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    NO intention to be argumentative here, but if Contender is dropped in his pasterns it's not from breeding or jumping. A horse's "suspensory apparatus" (all the soft tissues responsible for supporting it's great weight with proper joint angulation) is made to stand up to considerable abuse and there are plenty of older warmblood stallions that have led busy jumping and breeding careers without suffering suspensory breakdown. One example I have LOTS of personal experience with is Aristos B. He's a HEAVY boned Dutch who has mounted the phantom COUNTLESS times and who also had a significant show career. He just turned 28 on May 19. NO dropping in his fetlocks whatsoever. His hocks are showing a bit of arthritis, but he still has beautiful angulation in all his front and hind joints. In his heyday we often collected him twice daily and on occasion a third go 'round wasn't unheard of!
    Yes , and there are many that are dropped. Contender is 26 years old. It could be an injury.....I don't know and I don't care. I've never seen a Contender with dropped pasterns.

    Lets see.....who has made the most impact in breeding ? The 28 year old Aristos B with upright pasterns or the 26 year old Contender that is down on one ? Contender will still breed 350 mares this year down on one pastern.

    The stallions are very old.......if they drop at this age , it's not important.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    Yes , and there are many that are dropped. Contender is 26 years old. It could be an injury.....I don't know and I don't care. I've never seen a Contender with dropped pasterns.

    Lets see.....who has made the most impact in breeding ? The 28 year old Aristos B with upright pasterns or the 26 year old Contender that is down on one ? Contender will still breed 350 mares this year down on one pastern.

    The stallions are very old.......if they drop at this age , it's not important.

    I submit that those that are dropped have carried and then express a genetic predisposition to suspensory breakdown. Perhaps it's DSLD, perhaps something else, but it can be seen in certain lines and not in others and in my considerable experience with horses and limb issues, the propensity for suspensory failure is hereditary.
    Although I have no interest in engaging in a debate with one particular poster, I must add that Aristos B absolutely does not have upright pasterns and is the sire of 'The Sporthorse of the Century". Not too shabby in my opinion. A correct pastern angle is a far cry from "upright".
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    I submit that those that are dropped have carried and then express a genetic predisposition to suspensory breakdown. Perhaps it's DSLD, perhaps something else, but it can be seen in certain lines and not in others and in my considerable experience with horses and limb issues, the propensity for suspensory failure is hereditary.
    Although I have no interest in engaging in a debate with one particular poster, I must add that Aristos B absolutely does not have upright pasterns and is the sire of 'The Sporthorse of the Century". Not too shabby in my opinion. A correct pastern angle is a far cry from "upright".
    I meant upright as in still up at 28 yrs old , not as a conformation critique.

    I beg to differ that this is hereditary. I think it is old age. If you started seeing 8 , 10 , 15 year old horses down on their pasterns, I would be inclined to agree that it is hereditary. You do not see this with Contender , nor have I seen it with the offspring of other old stallions that are down.

    Aristos B is a good sire but nowhere near the producer Contender has been. Not my opinion , this is fact.



  12. #12
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    Comparing Aristos and COntender is like comparing apples to oranges. I only brought Aristos's name up to give an example of an elderly, popularly used stallion who has healthy pastern and fetlock angles.
    Even IF old age is the only factor at play with dropped fetlocks it is a fact that straighter hind joint angles predispose a horse to breakdown of all hind limb joints over time. Avoiding concentrating lines with straighter angles in the limbs vastly decreases the chances of related issues early on as well as at an advanced age. Which does speak to the OP's original question. Straight joint angles are genetic, therefore so is the predisposition for age-related breakdown.
    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory



  13. #13
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    How does everyone feel about Chaccomo? He has Contender as his sire's damsire and also as his damsire.

    What kind of mare does Contender need? Does Contender's sons show the same weaknesses?

    I'm curious because Contender does sire successful driving horses.



  14. #14
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    What kind of mare does Contender need?



    framey; blooded



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ne1 View Post


    framey; blooded

    What does "framey" mean?
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  16. #16
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    long rectangular lines, not pony-ish. always best accompanied with long croup and long legs.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    I must add that Aristos B ... is the sire of 'The Sporthorse of the Century". Not too shabby in my opinion.
    It must be the heat and humidity... but I am drawing total blank here.... who are you talking about as "The Sporthorse of the Century." That accolade would have to go to a stallion that excelled at more than one discipline, or produced offspring that performed at the top level of sport in show jumping, dressage and eventing. I am trying to think of who that stallion is and am drawing a complete blank. The closest I can think of in NA in Contango, and even he falls a bit short of the mark (and his sire is Contender). Who am I missing?



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    It must be the heat and humidity... but I am drawing total blank here.... who are you talking about as "The Sporthorse of the Century." That accolade would have to go to a stallion that excelled at more than one discipline, or produced offspring that performed at the top level of sport in show jumping, dressage and eventing. I am trying to think of who that stallion is and am drawing a complete blank. The closest I can think of in NA in Contango, and even he falls a bit short of the mark (and his sire is Contender). Who am I missing?
    Rox Dene perhaps?



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartier View Post
    It must be the heat and humidity... but I am drawing total blank here.... who are you talking about as "The Sporthorse of the Century." That accolade would have to go to a stallion that excelled at more than one discipline, or produced offspring that performed at the top level of sport in show jumping, dressage and eventing. I am trying to think of who that stallion is and am drawing a complete blank. The closest I can think of in NA in Contango, and even he falls a bit short of the mark (and his sire is Contender). Who am I missing?
    I was initially wondering the same thing but chose not to argue the point.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
    ...I must add that Aristos B absolutely does not have upright pasterns and is the sire of 'The Sporthorse of the Century". Not too shabby in my opinion.....


    aristos who?

    sire of what?

    please.



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