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  1. #1
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Unhappy Help me prevent a trainwreck- need safety articles, etc

    If you were employed by an entity that knows nothing about horses that thinks there is nothing wrong with taking random horses (not school horses, just horses people have) and hiring inexperienced help and voila, start a kids riding camp, where would you begin to illustrate why for so many reasons this is such a bad idea? I don't have the authority to disallow this. I can only re-direct. So I want to get supporting material that shows the proper way these things are done. I also plan to address the insurance coverage issue, what company on earth would agree to cover this program?
    Which national organization ( BHS, Pony Club, Certified Horsemanship Assoc, etc) I wonder has the best model for safe practices?
    Quality horse publications don't have chapters on outlandish dangerous ideas because no one in their right mind who knows horses would consider such a thing....



  2. #2
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    Oct. 27, 2006
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    Try contacting the American Riding Instructor's Association or Certified Horsemanship Association. Both would be very good resources for information.



  3. #3
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    Apr. 27, 2008
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    You work for them in the horse business? I suggest you resign. Yesterday.



  4. #4
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    Oct. 20, 2002
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    Austin, TX
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    Uh, the insurance company? They've got to have info on liability for stable owners, etc...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    You can't have everything. Where would you put it all?



  5. #5
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    Default

    What sort of an entity? Is there any sort of professional body that sets/encourages best-practices for entities of this sort?

    The insurance company is good, but insurance companies can be clueless, so don't rest all your hopes on it...

    Know any lawyers who could do a search of riding-related negligence suits in your jurisdiction?
    Proud member of the EDRF



  6. #6
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    Apr. 6, 2006
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nin View Post
    You work for them in the horse business? I suggest you resign. Yesterday.
    Agreed.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 1, 2001
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    Finally...back in civilization, more or less
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    Depends a bit on what they intend to do in this kids' camp and what sort of horses they acquire. Most horses - even those not otherwise suitable for a school program - could probably be used safely if the kids are just being led around in a ring... I'd guess the inexperienced handlers might be more at risk in terms of getting stepped on, dragged over to the grass, etc...

    For sure not an ideal situation but I don't think it's a trainwreck necessarily. Point out to them that it will be easier to find help that can deal with quiet, older horses who already know their jobs and they may be fine.

    Or of course you could always quit.
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina



  8. #8
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Default

    And, um, what would they do with the horses during the bulk of the year that camp is not in session? And where would they keep the horses when camp is in session?

    Tack + equipment
    Ring maintenance
    Horse maintenance - vet, farrier, feed

    If they are that crazy rich, have them adopt me and I can channel their money into much better avenues!
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  9. #9
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    Jan. 17, 2008
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    I'd just get an experienced (in the horse business) insurance agent to speak with them.

    That way you don't have a "difference of opinion" or have them think you are extreme or something. When an insurance agent tells them that doing things their way will potentially cost them their business/livelihood they should sit up and take notice.



  10. #10
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMF11 View Post
    I'd just get an experienced (in the horse business) insurance agent to speak with them.

    That way you don't have a "difference of opinion" or have them think you are extreme or something. When an insurance agent tells them that doing things their way will potentially cost them their business/livelihood they should sit up and take notice.
    I think this is the best place to start. I read some equine insurance applications for liability specifically for camps and lessons and the details of the information they ask for will clearly show that they are not at all qualified to do what they are wanting. Questions asking about instructor certification, qualifications, first aid training, etc that they don't have...



  11. #11
    Join Date
    May. 3, 2006
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    If you were employed by an entity that knows nothing about horses that thinks there is nothing wrong with taking random horses (not school horses, just horses people have) and hiring inexperienced help and voila, start a kids riding camp, where would you begin to illustrate why for so many reasons this is such a bad idea?
    You're employed by them??? Ask to see their public liability and employer's liability insurance. Then go find another job. You might also want to remind them that it's their statutory obligation to ensure they take all reasonable steps and manage asssociated risks to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their customers and staff.

    I don't have the authority to disallow this. I can only re-direct. So I want to get supporting material that shows the proper way these things are done. I also plan to address the insurance coverage issue, what company on earth would agree to cover this program?

    Which national organization ( BHS, Pony Club, Certified Horsemanship Assoc, etc) I wonder has the best model for safe practices?
    Well here there's the BHS and Riding Establishments Licencing. That means I've to evidence

    * Suitability, competence and qualification
    * That consideration will be given to the condition of the horses, that they will be maintained in good health and their feet properly looked after. (with a veterinary inspection)
    * Adequate pasture, shelter, water, exercise, rest and grooming is provided. (with an inspection system)
    * The horses shall be suitable for the purposes for which they are kept.
    * Whether a current insurance policy is held insuring the holder against liability for any injury sustained from using those horses.

    The thing is though is that the USA is not regulated.

    You might want to let them have some of the adverts from lawyers that deal with such claims:

    e.g.

    Some of the most common types of horse riding accidents our personal injury solicitors and lawyers deal with involve:

    * Horse riders being injured due to defective equipment they have been provided with such as a saddle, a girth, a bridle, reins or riding hat.
    * Riders being injured because their girth has not been fastened correctly causing them to fall from the horse.
    * Horse riders being injured due to riding on an unsuitable surface.
    * Riders being involved in a road accident with a motorised vehicle.
    * Horse riders being provided with a horse to ride which has an unsuitable temperament or isn't sufficiently trained.
    * Accidents caused due to poor leadership or management of a hack where ideally an instructor should take a place at the front and rear of the group and arrange the other riders and horses between. Too many riders or failure to plan properly and give signals to traffic frequently causes accidents.
    * Accidents caused due to poor management and assessment of ability

    If you have been injured by a horse or as a result of horse riding and any of the above, you may be entitled to make a personal injury compensation claim. For more information about how we can help you on a cost-free basis, complete one of our online personal injury compensation claim forms.



  12. #12
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    Oct. 3, 2002
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    CHA. Used to be the Camp Horsemanship Association. Now is "Certified" Horsemanship Assoc.

    They are the first and oldest group to certify not just instructors, but facilities for camp, public, school and group riding programs. They SET the standard. There are 'standards' in writing for everything from ring size to fence height to number of riders per instructor, tack/equipment, horse suitability, hours of use, etc.

    They are very often called to be professional witnesses (not the right term, I know... but you know what I mean) in court cases. If you are a CHA Certified Instructor and are sued, they will go to court for you/with you. Basically, if it cannot be proven that you were NOT following CHA standards, you won't lose. The standards are that strict and proven.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  13. #13
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    Default

    OP, hate to say this but did your boss ask you for ideas or to get involved setting this up? Have they asked you to inquire about insurance on their behalf? Your boss may not appreciate you making inquiries without his knowledge, espeicially if a salesman shows up as a result of your inquiries, ask first.

    Have they asked you to research instructors? Have they asked you to provide them with literature? Are you SURE they will appreciate your obtaining all this and presenting them with it?

    I would go very, very carefully in pointing out what your employer is doing wrong and/or what they need to do to improve. It usually does not go well when employees point out shortcomings of their employers and their businesses. Right or wrong.

    Usually, when you get a job working for somebody, the way it is when you start is the way it is going to stay. It's not up to you to change everything.

    While it is nice you are concerned, and you are right, you may not need to quit if you go ahead with this. Don't see that as a bad thing either, does not sound like a safe place to work.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  14. #14
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    Mar. 23, 2005
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    Default

    Findeight has a good point. Depending on your employer/employee relationship, getting deeply involved may put you on the fast track for unemployment, unfortunately.

    If your relationship is such that your advice will be, if not appreciated, at least allowed, then certainly go for it. I started a riding program for the camp I work for this year, and it differs greatly from the one my employers had envisioned - but my position and rapport within the company is such that I was able to make that happen, and put together a solid program that we can all be proud of. In large part this is because I was able to simply put my foot down at times along the way and say, "No, it cannot work that way," and insist on good horsemanship/programming/hiring/etc practices.

    If that is not a position you have in your company, then you may have to make a tough choice as regards further employment there.

    On the other hand, those who say, "you should quit now" don't seem to have a very good grasp on the current job market. It's easy to opine that the ethical course is to quit a job when your employers are headed for a trainwreck - but what if you have horses who you won't be able to feed if you are unemployed long-term? Loans that will go unpaid? What is more ethical: quitting your job on principle and then foregoing all your other obligations, or muddling through with a sketchy job so the bills get paid while you look for better employment?

    Because, news flash: for many people, even upstanding, well-qualified people, if they went out and quit their jobs today it could be many months before they found employment again - enough months to eat up even a well-stocked savings account. (And that's assuming the economy hasn't already eaten into that savings account - I know it has done so with mine.)

    I'm not saying one choice is right and the other one wrong - it's the OP's life, after all, not ours, and we don't know the details - but just that giving black and white advice is ignoring the reality of the world, the economy, and the job market.
    Proud member of the EDRF



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