[fish]

"If you have customers coming who are going to be fearful and not particulary well balanced, and quite possibly a late beginner,and have the money to buy, what kind of horse will you have to offer them?"
I for one hope it's a horse old enough and with enough competition miles to focus on and do his/her job in spite of clashing aids from a "not particularly well balanced" rider. S/he's called a "packer," worth a fortune, and only to a very limited extent, a horse one can breed.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">S/he's called a "packer," worth a fortune, and only to a very limited extent, a horse one can breed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, actually I just sold one of those intentionally bred "packer" types - as a 3 year old to an AA Hunter rider. http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...s/winkgrin.gif Doesn't quite know her job fully yet, but nothing bothers her. They got her to her new home, and couldn't resist riding her a few hours later in a busy indoor. She was an angel, and wowed everyone with her wonderful brain! She is in a really fancy barn and I just can't wait to watch her career!

[EqTrainer]

I am Fairview on this.. packers are mostly bred and not made. Yes, yes, they still need to be trained, but that packer mentality is usually there from the beginning.

The ones who are made up into them are not usually as reliable and sure aren't ready at a young age.

Just the other day I rode two horses, same age, same amount of training, same background - one was an ammy horse (born broke was the phrase I used) and one was not fancy enough to be a pro horse but sure was no ammy horse. Guess which one got sold? The other one will need many more miles and training to be what the other was, the day he was born.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What is Sweet Lullaby?

Emily Williams
HUSHABYE
gray mare 1989
Emily Williams
TB - USA
GOOD TWIST x SWEET LULLABY </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm really not sure what Sweet Lullaby is. All the articles mentioning Hushabye list her as a TB Cross, however, and she is registered at the USEF as an "American Sport Horse"; whatever that may be.
USEF though also lists her sire as Big News and not Good Twist. I'm inclined to think it wasn't Good Twist, since he died in 1981 and Hushabye was foaled in 1989.
The Sweet Lullaby that shows up in the TB database is definitely not the right horse, but there may be others with that name not entered.

[tri]

I don't think you could call any 3 year old a packer. I green broke a 4 year old one time that didn't realize she could buck with someone on her back until a deer jumped out and ran across the arena. She leaped into the air, startled, then I could almost feel the lightbulb come on. We spent several weeks getting her through the "playing" with mom by leaping and bucking in the air on those cool fall mornings.

I've also seen quite a few easy going, very laid back types turn into monsters when put into a 5 day program for the first time. 3 times a week for 20 minutes then back to the pasture was a much better life in their opinion.

[fish]

"Yes, yes, they still need to be trained, but that packer mentality is usually there from the beginning."

Yes, I agree completely with the necessity of having the mentality there from the beginning: that's the "extent" to which they are, indeed, bred. As you point out, however, "they still need to be trained," and, as others point out, they still need to get a few miles on them before one can know for sure that their packer temperaments will hold up under stress. One needs to consider, too, that even the best minded young horse will have a very hard time becoming really solid at his/her job without the help of a rider/trainer skilled enough to impart confidence where beginners can only impart their own confusion and lack of balance. Unless I've gotten a completely erroneous impression from these boards, most breeders would prefer to have their horses sold long before they've put that much time, work and $ into them.

[Reg Corkum]

I love ya Fairview, yer plucky and outgoing and a real warrior but...I fear that what you say on the three year ole packer is...just a slight stretch.

A packer with age is a packer for sure. A young packer is going to have some moments along the way. Hopefully not big ones and then yes, a packer he will be.

[EqTrainer]

Considering it was an AA rider they probably had a trainer in tow and said trainer will handle keeping the horse on track. I hope! I agree that three is young.. but truly, you can see the capability to be one in some three year olds.

I do have to admit I have seen some horses that even a monkey could not screw up. It is amazing and I doubt that anyone could breed THAT reliably... I think it is a fluke actually. It is usually a combination of a submissive/confident personality. Always a dream to train.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just sold one of those intentionally bred "packer" types </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say she was a packer *yet". I said she was a packer "TYPE". She still needs to be trained to do her job, but we have known her disposition since shortly after birth. She has never surprised me except to be MUCH easier when put to the test than I believed she would be.

Example: Had not been off the farm or near a trailer since a few months old, and only one trip. Purchaser arrived to trailer to her pre-purchase exam. While she was at the barn, I headed down to the trailer with the filly to let her look at the trailer. She hesitated about 2 seconds, and up she went. I was not ready to load, but didn't want to stop her. I just stood with her inside until the lady came back down the driveway and closed the bar. She loaded exactly the same way to come home, again for another trip to a different vet, and home (different trailer). And once again to leave with her new owner. Never a damp hair, no worries at all. Just like she did this daily.

This filly was one we stopped longeing by her 3rd day under saddle. Her 4th day, she mounted and rode her from the gate, across the field to the ring to ride her.

I have 2 more that will probably be just like her - a 2004 gelding, and a 2005 filly (by a different stallion, and out of a different mare)

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Considering it was an AA rider they probably had a trainer in tow and said trainer will handle keeping the horse on track. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually she bought the filly without her trainer, but did take a video back. Trainer got to see the horse when she rode her that first day home and is thrilled. Her owner is buying a top notch facility, and her trainer is moving to work out of her barn with all his clients. This will be a super arangement, and I am sure any glitches will be easily worked out. And you are exactly right - passive horse, with a lot of confidence - just totally trusting that life is wonderful, and she LOVES to be ridden as it gives her attention.

I will also say that this is not a beginner type AA. She is a very good rider, and rode my a bit "hotter" and more sensitive 5 year old wonderful too.

Here she is on her 2nd or 3rd day under saddle. And nope, she has never been in draw reins. She was longed about 2 times in very long side reins.

[Curley]

I have been following this thread with great interest and just wanted to add in on the "packer mentality" discussion.

Absolutely, 100% you can breed in "packer mentality" and yes it shows at a young age. Consistant, generational proof is in the draft horses. Some of the top hotter show animals of these breeds would certainly not be considered "beginner" horses, but for the most part these breeds have the most "packer mentality" horses around. Horses that were "born broke", literally. If you look at the history of these breeds, it's easy to see why. Horses that didn't have the work mentality, that were too difficult or nasty were culled (shipped) and those genetics were removed from the gene pool.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IMHO I find the draft horse breeders are still more willing to "cull" their herds than the average sport horse breeder, probably due to their agricultural backgrounds and the fact that they don't often reach "pet" status. If you're going to breed, then you should also be able to make those hard decisions of who should not be bred as well. I honestly find it depressing to hear "I bred this non-proven, ill mannered, next to "free" TB mare because she is well-bred... there's Secretariat way way back in her papers". It just seems that many (and I am not referring to anyone on this board) breeders put far too much weight on the Stallion ... any breeder worth their salt should see the stallion as an asset, but the real bread and butter in breeding is in your mare line.

[Touchstone Farm]

Beezer wrote:
"The point many of us are trying to make is that it is not necessarily the highest-dollar horse with the most impeccable credentials that equals being the best cross for an individual mare."
..............
I quite agree with this. Nowhere have I written in my posts that only pricey stud fees will make the "best." The same goes for "expensive" broodmares. All I'm saying is that if at all times when trying to breed the best match to the best mare to get the "best" result (which includes keeping in mind temperament) is that you will get some top horses, some "middle" results and some "oops." Breeding is a gamble! So my point is try for the gold as much as one possibly can...no reason to start out breeding for the "average" amateur -- those will happen.

What bothers me about these discussions is that it seems the breeders who argue for breeding for this "amateur"/middle market, also seem to be the first ones complaining when buyers stream to Europe.

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All I'm saying is that if at all times when trying to breed the best match to the best mare to get the "best" result (which includes keeping in mind temperament) is that you will get some top horses, some "middle" results and some "oops." Breeding is a gamble! So my point is try for the gold as much as one possibly can...no reason to start out breeding for the "average" amateur -- those will happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do keep going in a circle. What is the "best"? To me it is Olympic Gold - a very sensitive, reactive horse. I am not breeding for that, and in fact, if I get one like that, it WILL be my "oops" and I will seriously look at the cross to NOT repeat. What I am breeding IS the best - the best gaits, and athletic ability, AND the best temperament and MY definition of rideability to make them easy to ride and train. Some will be almost beginner proof, and some will be more sensitive for FEI riders.

[Beezer]

But, Touchstone, the reason to try to breed for that market is because, here in the U.S., that is the vast majority of the market. Why wouldn't I -- and others -- strive to produce a horse that will sell to that market? That's the focus of our programs; if it's not yours, great, fine ... but don't assume that we don't know what we're doing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

And you know what? Sometimes a horse I envision as a top-flight ammie hunter turns out to prefer being an upper level dressage horse. It's happened twice, and I still can't figure out how. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_razz.gif

Finally, **I** don't have a problem with people going to Europe to look for horses. The theories about why they do so have been beaten to death, IMHO, and I know why I think so many people still head overseas. But I know that I am producing horses that will sell; if other people aren't, then they need to look at their own programs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

[madabouttheboy]

I'm following this thread with interest (man is it long). I am a strictly amateur breeder, I breed for my own use and for my daughters.

But I admit to finding the whole thing a big gamble. When I used imported Holstein bloodlines over my TB mare I thought I might get a hotter type that talented daughter might event. But I got an absolute honey of a horse, he is now 3, just started and nothing has ever been an issue. He was shown in hand, as a 2 year old, didn't bat an eyelid.

Golly's first show

He has the breeding to be an international horse, but he's now probably going to be my "granny horse" (once I start taking him around I'll see how he goes - can always hand him on to my daughter).

Second one I bred - was for myself, dressage orientation. Also by an imported approved stallion out of a classified mare. Well, he is full of talent and potential but I don't think will not be a horse I want to ride.
He's a yearling so we will see, he is having a lot of handling at the moment learning the rules and is getting nicer by the day.

Third foal I have high hopes for. His conformation and movement look spot on, he has a very curious, intelligent and calm outlook. Again, we'll see.

There is so much variation between full siblings - how the heck can you ever "purpose" breed?

[MagicRoseFarm]

My catch line for my stallion is " Talent with UNSURPASSABLE Temperament". It suits perfect and it shows in the foals. So far with all except one, since birth , they don't even get up when u enter the stall, we can braid them laying down, they bath easy. We BODY clipped a 3 month old, after a bit, I did it BY myself , insides of legs , everything, as a joke we clipped her face with no halter on her or even a rope around her neck, she was soo helpful.... . the two year olds we can go out and SIT ON THEM sleeping in the field,, I am getting old,, that's what I want to deal with every day or ride..and that is why I kept the sire.

[Touchstone Farm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But, Touchstone, the reason to try to breed for that market is because, here in the U.S., that is the vast majority of the market. Why wouldn't I -- and others -- strive to produce a horse that will sell to that market? That's the focus of our programs; if it's not yours, great, fine ... but don't assume that we don't know what we're doing.

A </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree -- the middle market/amateur market IS the vast market -- but have you seen a bell curve? The majority of items (for example, students in a class room) being measured in a bell curve fall in the middle -- like a bell! So again, my point is...if you breed for the "best" you will get some top ones, you will get the "middle" and some lows. If you start at the middle, you drop the bell curve lower...

Several breeders I know say they breed for the amateur market and I know they are absolutely focused on making sure as much as possible that the horses they breed are highly rideable and trainable. And interestingly, when I stop by, they get out their best to show me and remark about their movement, how they can sit down, how they hardly touch the ground, how proud they are when their foals get picked as the top colt or filly at the inspection, etc. etc. They are very proud of trying to breed the "best" in their educated opinion. Do they get horses that are geared for the more "average" amateur? Of course, but it sure looks like they shoot for the stars with what they buy for broodmares and how they agonize over the stallion that will compliment their mares as best as they can guess. And yes, it's an educated "guess." Seems to me they're just trying to stack the cards in their favor as much as possible! What's wrong with getting a top amateur horse? Some of us want horses that are super rideable AND super movers! (And due to the bell curve, others will result that are not as good. Oh, well, as long as they have good temperaments, which these breeders do seem to emphasize, they will find homes.)

So where's the problem with that philosophy? I'm really not sure what the "argument" is about any more!!!

[Beezer]

I give up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

Let me put it this way: I believe that I **am** breeding the best mares to the best stallions to produce the best horses I can.

That I choose to produce horses that the average amateur lady hunter can ride -- while at the same time **also** earning premium ratings from their respective WB registeries -- would seem to be setting the bar pretty darned high.

At least from my perspective. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif

I think where the whole discussion got off track was the insistance that it's the lack of TALENT that makes an amateur horse.

That is very. simply. not. true.

[tri]

What is true is that nobody here has bred a top horse. Everything is an middle of the road horse at least so far so this discussion is kind of pointless.

All of the U.S. bred horses that we have found so far competing at the international (top) level with the exception of Judgement are from horses outside of the "approved" warmblood breeding guidelines and almost all have a TB as an immediate parent.

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Of course, but it sure looks like they shoot for the stars with what they buy for broodmares and how they agonize over the stallion that will compliment their mares as best as they can guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


'Zactly my point.

But, hey, gals, how about this: TELL ME how you decide differently? How would you NOT breed for the top of the market? What mare/stallion would you turn down if, say, it were FREE (and suited its intended mate physically) that those breeding for the top would accept? [Ah, but US beasties only, please, since we are talking about the US "top" vs. "middle" market.]

And as I ask that, another minor caveat: Do try to consider the "nature vs. nuture" question, too. [In other words, it will be illogical for you to turn down an animal because of its apparent temperament--only animals whose babies and/or close relatives have clearly inherited that temperament would defensible, IMO.]

OK, let's hear it. Ultimately, my question is: What US stallion has "too much movement" for you to consider breeding to?