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  1. #1
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    A good horse is a good horse and always has been...of any color and of any breed!!!... and with that said, there seems to be plenty of warmblood stallions slightly outside the market who just didn't make the cut for one reason or another who are standing and are worth considering, or at least I believe so.

    If one looks realistically at the big picture. Why? if one is breeding to produce a nice horse of competition quality, should one not consider a really nice horse who will never be eligible for approval due to no fault of his own (maybe not quite large enough, but throws size, maybe was injured in a training accident, non hereditary. I am talking about viable horses here that just are not going to get the acceptance but yet they are every bit as nice genetically, temperament wise, type, quality, and more. If their flaws do not impare their production, why not support them as well?

    If an exceptionally well bred stallion is made available at a very reasonable fee, why not consider him as a viable alternative? as hobby breeders don't always have the production funds or the sales returns in most cases? Rather than having a pasture full of horses one cannot sell because you have so much invested in them you cannot get it back, why not be realistic and produce the best you can with a few smart decisions to keep your overhead low? Doesn't this essentially help the market by offering more options?

    These people can afford to stand their stallions at lower rates because they have not had to invest the dollars, and this does not lessen the value of the actual horse. I am strictly saying this in terms of breeding for competition horses as I fully realize that once out of the approvals, unapproved breeding stock have limitations, but in competition, I doubt that that makes much of a difference really. How many poles are left standing doesn't truly relate to who's who in the breeding world.

    This is not an ANTI REGISTRY comment here, but it is a fact that a lot of the red tape and process is a BUSINESS so how does one approach their best business decisions on a shoe string budget???



  2. #2
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    A good horse is a good horse and always has been...of any color and of any breed!!!... and with that said, there seems to be plenty of warmblood stallions slightly outside the market who just didn't make the cut for one reason or another who are standing and are worth considering, or at least I believe so.

    If one looks realistically at the big picture. Why? if one is breeding to produce a nice horse of competition quality, should one not consider a really nice horse who will never be eligible for approval due to no fault of his own (maybe not quite large enough, but throws size, maybe was injured in a training accident, non hereditary. I am talking about viable horses here that just are not going to get the acceptance but yet they are every bit as nice genetically, temperament wise, type, quality, and more. If their flaws do not impare their production, why not support them as well?

    If an exceptionally well bred stallion is made available at a very reasonable fee, why not consider him as a viable alternative? as hobby breeders don't always have the production funds or the sales returns in most cases? Rather than having a pasture full of horses one cannot sell because you have so much invested in them you cannot get it back, why not be realistic and produce the best you can with a few smart decisions to keep your overhead low? Doesn't this essentially help the market by offering more options?

    These people can afford to stand their stallions at lower rates because they have not had to invest the dollars, and this does not lessen the value of the actual horse. I am strictly saying this in terms of breeding for competition horses as I fully realize that once out of the approvals, unapproved breeding stock have limitations, but in competition, I doubt that that makes much of a difference really. How many poles are left standing doesn't truly relate to who's who in the breeding world.

    This is not an ANTI REGISTRY comment here, but it is a fact that a lot of the red tape and process is a BUSINESS so how does one approach their best business decisions on a shoe string budget???



  3. #3
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    Off the top of my head, an obvious answer to your question is that this is a very competitive market… it costs a breeder as much to produce and raise the no-name stallion’s foal as the foal of the top-stallion-in-the-world. When it comes time to market the foal… it is so, so much easier to sell the foal of the top stallion (for a good price) then to try to sell the no-name stallion’s foal. There is so little profit (if any) in this market for breeders. By the time you go to sell anything, so many people along the way have their hand out for a percentage of the sale... I think a breeder has to hedge their bets and take the fewest risks possible, which as a practical matter means using the very best stallion possible.

    For one thing, the breeder benefits from all the advertisement of the top stallion when it comes time to sell the foal. Consider that Iron Spring Farm does so much advertising one does not have to do more than mention Contango, Judgement or Sir Sinclair for the potential buyer to know who the sire is and that the foal has quality.



  4. #4
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    I think the problem is that the stud fee is a VERY SMALL part of what it costs to get a foal on the ground. And once they are on the ground, the costs are the same to raise any foal, no matter who the stallion is.

    So, you really aren't cutting your costs THAT much by using a stallion whose stud fee is $750 vs. $1,750.

    And if the foal can not be registered it is going to be more difficult to sell.

    I just don't see that using an unapproved stallion with no or limited registration options for the foal is going to help you sell the foal at a price that you will cover your costs or heaven forbid make a small profit.

    I have gotten some super bargains via SSAs on stud fees from stallions that are approved and gotten some quality babies that are registered. I still have trouble getting them sold and making any money.
    Triple J Ranch Sporthorses
    www.triplejsporthorse.com
    Member - OMGiH I LOFF my mare(s) clique



  5. #5
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    You cut your market considerably, especially for a filly foal. I would never look at a filly with no papers, and there are registries which I won't name that I consider just as bad as having no papers.



  6. #6
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    Looks like I'm the odd one out here.

    Would I buy a horse by a lesser known stallion? Yes, if they ticked the things I was looking for.

    I think that the WB world has so many fashionable bloodlines now that older or different ones get overlooked.
    Horse Show Names Free name website with over 6200 names. Want to add? PM me!



  7. #7
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    Dec. 16, 2005
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    Cartier & inca & cindyGen...exactly, my thoughts as well. The vet fees, container fees and everything else remain the same no matter who you breed to. Stallion fee is definitely not the issue. If money is the issue you can also get a very good price on a young unproven stallion WITH impeccable blood lines to boot.



  8. #8
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    Sep. 17, 2002
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    I'm with the majority here, too. The old "it costs just as much to raise a good foal as a bad one" rings very true to my ears. Plus, with frozen semen from Celle for the likes of Weltmeyer at $600 a dose, if the breeding gods smile upon me, I can have a mare inseminated and checked in foal for under 2K. With the Shooting Star stallions (ex-DBNA), Furentanzer, Routiener, and tons of others standing for fresh cooled semen at around a grand or less, go for a good stallion.

    I do agree, however, with you Reg, that a fine quality mare or stallion can be injured and still be of great quality. I would not hesitate in that case, if the breeding approvals were suitable for me.

    Also, I would add to the chorus that it's better to breed one good mare than several mediocre ones, and I would also say that one good mare to one good stallion is a far better route finacially than any number of mediocre ones, as only 25% odds of an improvement over sire and dam are likely, 50% equal in quality, and 25% lesser in quality. I've bred nice horses to nice horses and still gotten less than nice/sell at a huge loss foals.

    edited to to respond to one of Reg's comments...The fact that the show market doesnt' give a hoot about breeding is a true fact in North America. But, from a breeders prospective... if you're talking about a performance horse winning at shows, you're not talking about the age range that most breeders want to sell. It takes too long to get them there, with too much invested time and money. We've got scores of breeders on this board that can't even get their youngstock started under saddle, much less showing and going.
    Jill
    www.eurofoal.homestead.com
    European bloodlines made in America



  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think that the WB world has so many fashionable bloodlines now that older or different ones get overlooked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This may be true, but I think we have to keep in mind that there is a significant chasm between the real world of equine sales and what we see posted here on this board.

    In the real world buyers want a horse with a certain level of training and potential who can perform to a specific level. I think pedigree is not as important as posters here would like to think (consider that many buyers haven’t a clue how to read a pedigree, much less understand why it might be good). The impression that the average buyer knows who Sir Donnerhall, Balou, Stedenger or any other “fashionable” hot young stallion is – is a bit naïve.

    Outside of sales pimped by registries or breeders that suggest each year’s hot stallion is the second coming of Christ, I don’t think the average buyer cares much. So the perception that the hot young stallion is influencing the market is more a figment of forums like this IMO.

    I think most breeders are struggling to break even... so we see a lot of hype about certain stallions, but I think what we see on this board (the cutesy, groupie, pat-on-the-back posts) does not represent the real world of equine sales.



  10. #10
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    If you want to produce for the sport horse market- horses that can show and be competitive- then I absoutely do not believe in breeding stallions that are not approved. We want to get as good and competitive as Europe in the sport horse world (and yes we produce a lot of nice foals, but not the same consistent quantity and quality as they do)do we not? They do it by culling. I am against breeding the poorly conformed or bad tempered backyard mare because you have nothing else to do with her as much as I am against breeding an unapproved stallion.



  11. #11
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    I'm going to perhaps lean a bit towards Reg's point here and have some points of my own to make.

    1. It costs no more to raise a WB foal than a QH foal or a TB foal. If a baby lives out on pasture on an owners farm, I'll bet you can maintain/grow him very inexpensively. What I'm trying to say is that everyone's break even point is not the same when raising the same end product.

    2. A mid range stallion might be available live cover which **can** save money to a mare owner in some situations...such as close proximity, difficult mare to settle, etc...

    3. I hear WB breeders citing the cost of stud fees all the time on this board as a reason why their foals are priced so high compared to other breeds. If there is a difference of $1500 ($2000 fee versus $500 fee) than you've saved a lot of money in the first year just getting that foal on the ground. $1500 may not sound like a lot but it can make a big difference to some folks like me. Heck that's almost the cost of a tractor trailer load of hay...

    4. I'll agree with Reg also that someone who offers a nice quality..even unregistered...WB foal for sale might be able to offer that foal for less and move it out faster than those who spend way more on stud fees and approvals and keep their price higher waiting for that high end buyer to show up. I know there are a lot of people who'd like a WB that cannot afford one...

    5. I agree with the last point that Reg made that approvals and papers matter very little to people looking for a nice riding horse...ammies in particular. I know folks here state that they are not breeding specifically for the ammie market (remember the backyard breeder discussions?) but isn't that where the vast majority of the horses end up?



  12. #12
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    To make any kind of a profit in this business, breeders need to sell foals, unless they are also trainers who can start the young horses that don’t sell as foals. So the named stallion helps sell the foal (or at the very least, brings some amount of attention to the foal).

    But there is a difference between a pretty foal and a good mature horse. I don’t think they are always one and the same. The fashionable name stallion won’t mean didly by the time you have to put a saddle on the horse. At that point it doesn’t matter who the stallion was, it’s how well the breeding cross worked, how well the horse was raised, how well the horse is started and trained etc, that matters to buyers.



  13. #13
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    Being in the mid-west, I can raise a foal cheaper than a lot of you on the east coast. BUT...I don't think it is a whole lot easier to sell here, even though I can price my foals lower. I just can't breed to a stallion that isn't approved and sell the baby. I have had a hard enough time selling the warmblood babies out of TB mares (nice, approved mares with show records). They do sell, but not as quickly as what I've had some people call "real warmbloods".
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
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  14. #14
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    Well I would like to weigh in here on two points:

    The first deals with this:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In the real world buyers want a horse with a certain level of training and potential who can perform to a specific level. I think pedigree is not as important as posters here would like to think (consider that many buyers haven’t a clue how to read a pedigree, much less understand why it might be good). The impression that the average buyer knows who Sir Donnerhall, Balou, Stedenger or any other “fashionable” hot young stallion is – is a bit naïve.
    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There are many serious dressage riders who know an awful lot about pedigree. I've had discussions with riders who know what stallions were known for producing, what to look for in foals by them and what to watch for in the mares. (And yes these are US riders that I am talking about.) An example of this is the young lady who bought my Prince Thatch foal. She is a very talented rider and she knows ALOT about pedigrees. I was surprised in our initial conversations just how much she know about Prince Thatch, what he was known for passing (good and bad) and the types of mares that he crossed well with. I've had many other conversations similar to this with other riders. You might be surprised how much they know!


    My second point is short and sweet:
    The cost of a stud fee pales in comparison to the investment in quality mares.

    For this reason, it doesn't make business sense to me to try to save a $1000 on a cheaper stud fee versus a top stallion. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. But I will preface that by saying that the stallion needs to be the best cross for this particular mare, not necessarily the hot new stallion de'jour. (It's nice when it works out to be both though http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif )
    Linda
    Home of EM Day Dream, SPS Pakesa, & SPS Destiny
    Breeders of USDF HOY Reminisce HM and USDF Reserve HOY Legacy HM
    http://wbstallions.net/hof-mendenhall/



  15. #15
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    Nov. 19, 2003
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    California
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    LOL, Linda, your comment about dressage riders is exactly why the only really hot (if any horse market can be called hot today!) foal market is for dressage type foals.

    I boarded at a breeding farm for several years, waiting for my baby to grow up. All the foals that sold were the fashionably bred ones, to dressage buyers. I myself bred for my future hunter, but I don't recall a single buyer coming in and saying, I am looking for a nice 3' horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    I honestly beleive that outside of the dressagy market, breeders have a very tough time of it in the U.S. I went the oppisite route to using a lesser known or unapproved stallion. I had an unapproved TB mare, bred her to a very well known Hannoverian stallion, whose approved with everyone and carries an $1800 stud fee. Due to an offer I couldn't refuse, I sold the mare while in foal, with the argeement I get the foal after foaling and weaning. They would not let me take the mare off property to get to an inspection with foal at side... so now I have wonderful, hunter type filly, huge, sweet, correct, and unregistered!

    Luckily for her and myself, I have no problem with keeping her until she is going under saddle and all the hunter riders are ready to buy, bloodlines, breeding and papers be damned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif

    People are complaning on another thread of a lack of hunter sires? How can they make any money unless they are so well known by name in the show arena that a lost hunter rider/jumper rider might wander in and buy one of his foals?

    I simply don't know how any of the 'big' breeders do it. Its got to be the worst career of love to invest in. A friend of mine just had a mare abort a lovely chestnut colt that she was looking foward to, this week, so she was very far along... I couldn't take the broken hearts along the way to be a professional breeder.

    B...



  16. #16
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    To me, it IS about the quality and reaching the "middle market".

    I started out arguing with my Warmblood breeding farrier & friend that , "I would NEVER breed to an unlicensed stallion", as I needed the papers. I did my research, bred to stallions that ended up Devon Grand Champions, Devon stallion class winners, and other regional & National stallion champions that were highly successful as riding horses, (all at FEI Dressage & 2 at Grand Prix including one that ended up at the Olympics) & producing riding horses. I had developed my "eye" enough to choose those stallions BEFORE they went to Devon, or the Olympics, which just confirmed my judgement.

    I had Devon placers in the huge open classes, Lexington & VADA DSHB winners. I put reasonable prices on them. All inspected with the Hann, Old, Belg, West. and branded, 1st premiums, great comments, etc.

    I couldn't sell a thing.

    Then Nevada grew up, and I test bred him.

    His first filly out of a mare of unknown breeding beat youngsters by European stallions, and out of SPS mares. His next year's colt placed 3rd (out of about 40) at Devon - much higher than any of the others, and sold before 2 months of age. In fact, all of a sudden, they WERE selling. I had contracts on all of his first 2 crops (4 foals) before weaning, and all sold for $5000.+ (and I didn't have any inspection or paperwork expenses).

    Not only was I putting nice, sellable, and showable foals on the ground, but I was able to sell them in a price range that was attracting buyers. I just can't afford to keep them all until they are riding age, and since I don't have a big, fancy farm, I have to be able to sell youngsters in the price range that is less than what the BN farms sell for, and I need MOST to sell as weanlings or yearlings.

    It is not just about the stud fee either, as I have turned down free breeding for my mares to approved stallions. I take my foals to Devon each year to make sure they are competitive, and I am not "barn blind".

    At a recent inspection, I had a stallion owner follow me back to my stall, and was all over me trying to convinve me that if I bred my mare to his stallion, I would "get my premium foal". Anyone seeing her baby at that inspection, and also hearing the Inspectors comments knows, I already DID get my premium foal by my "other" unlicensed stallion. I just didn't get the plaque.

    Paperwork also comes in many forms. That colt has a ISR/OLD Certificate of Pedigree. He is eligible for breed awards, and the same classes that any full branded baby is. He can't be a stallion candidate, but how many buyers does that eliminate? If it was a filly, she can be presented for studbook, and produce fully papered foals, so what else do they need? The Dutch will issue Register B papers, and those fillies also can produce Foalbook foals, so that works too. However, 95% of the buyers are not looking for a breeding horse, and as soon as the youngsters grow up and are started, their value is the same as the branded ones.

    I prefer to take my stock to have them evaluated at Devon each year. I still get European judges, as well as excellent American ones, but for me, it takes the politics out of the game, and now the babies are proving they are not just nice foals, they are riding horses too.

    Quality AND price are what is selling.



  17. #17
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    I don’t dispute that some stallions have good name recognition. We get inquires all the time based entirely on the stallions we have used. And some people are able to recite verbiage from Eylers (or some other similar type of source), though I often wonder about the merit of these kinds of assessments. I have the impression that many people’s “knowledge” is rather superficial, based on advertisement and hype, which may account for why certain stallions are held in such high esteem by some.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are many serious dressage riders who know an awful lot about pedigree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    As for this target group… “serious dressage riders” in my opinion, this is a hideous market for a breeder to try to reach. What with the cost of breeding, raising the foal, training the young horse and getting a performance record on the horse which would interest a “serious dressage rider” ... the average breeder would go broke.

    I think very few “serious dressage riders" are looking for foals. By the time you have a product to offer the average “serious dressage rider” you have so much invested you probably won’t break even on the sale. But then, our definition of “serious dressage rider” may be markedly different.



  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cartier:
    But then, our definition of “serious dressage rider” may be markedly different. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c...icon_smile.gif Well, these are riders who have trained horses and competed horses at the FEI levels, including GP, and they regularly go horse shopping in Europe. These are the riders that we are trying to encourage to shop in the US. And yes, some of them do buy foals. I don't think it is wise to underestimate the knowledge of one's buyers!

    But as you said 'our definition of “serious dressage rider” may be markedly different'. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_c.../icon_wink.gif
    Linda
    Home of EM Day Dream, SPS Pakesa, & SPS Destiny
    Breeders of USDF HOY Reminisce HM and USDF Reserve HOY Legacy HM
    http://wbstallions.net/hof-mendenhall/



  19. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, these are riders who have trained horses and competed horses at the FEI levels, including GP, and they regularly go horse shopping in Europe. These are the riders that we are trying to encourage to shop in the US. And yes, some of them do buy foals. I don't think it is wise to underestimate the knowledge of one's buyers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I do not know these “riders who have trained horses and competed horses at the FEI levels, including GP, and they regularly go horse shopping in Europe…. and some of them do buy foals.”

    The only people we have ever known that are buying foals in Germany are looking for bargains to bring here for resale (with the mystic and cachet that the foal is imported). These people are not interested in anything we breed; rather, they are interest in making a profit on a sale. To them a foal is a commodity and there are more in Germany, and at times the prices may be good for “flipping foals.”

    Absent a fire sale, I don’t think anything we breed here in the USA will interest them… unless maybe they shipped the foal to Germany and back and could then say it was an “imported foal.” http://chronicleforums.com/images/cu...milies/lol.gif



  20. #20
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    I am going to jump in here. There are two sides to this and both have logical arguments. Fairview and Reg are on the side that a good horse is a good horse...papers or no. Agreed!

    Now the question of whether buyers want papers! I have seen some horses with wonderful papers that I wouldn't buy...and some without papers who I would beg to have in my barn.

    In the TB world, unless a TB is fashionably bred you can't get the money at the sales period. Now if you look at the warmblood market, there are horses with fashionable pedigrees that go for top dollar. But to be reasonable, our show world is more interested in performance (that is what I was told recently) so "fashionable pedigree" may not be as marketable as performance on one side of the aisle.

    However, if you want papers, you can always present to one of the registries like AWS; AWR; RPSI and get inspected, branded and papers...you can also get papers if you know the pedigree from PHR...but will it effect the performance of the horse?

    While there are always those who "really know" pedigrees...there are just as many who don't care about pedigree and really just want a nice horse.

    There is no yes, or no, right or wrong her, it is just a matter of what you yourself want in the offspring. Popeye K seems to get lots of work just on performance alone! There are many top performers out there which is what Reg is alluding to IMHO
    http://www.herselffarm.com
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