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  1. #1
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    Jul. 10, 2009
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    Default Shoulder in versus Haunches out

    For starters, My background is not dressage, I started western, then switch to english and acquired an OTTB. Said TB and I started in the hunters, have moved to jumpers and will hopefully event this summer. We've done a few local dressage shows at training level, but I ride at a HJ barn and there is not much emphasis on flatwork.

    So my question, is what is the difference between a shoulder in and a haunches out? Direction of bend? Aids? I realized that although I can move his haunches in and out, my trainer refers to the latter as a shoulder in. Which is correct?

    Additionally, any suggestions for things I should be practicing, so far our repertoire includes baby turns on the fore/hind, shoulder in/haunches in/out, leg yielding, counter canter and flying changes. I'm sure it's not up to pure dressage standards, but its there.



  2. #2
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    Default

    Change of bend.

    Shoulder in is bent toward the inside. Haunches out (AKA renvers) is bent to the outside.

    If you look at the Dressage rules (either in the rule book or on line at the USEF site) fig 1 shows shoulder in and fig 3 shows renvers.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  3. #3
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    Default

    Sooooo, is a SI just a HI in reverse? In other words, if you were SI tracking right, and ONLY reversed direction, would you then be doing HI?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  4. #4
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    SI and HI are relative to the track you are on, not each other
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  5. #5
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    Default

    I always consider it like the differences between leg yield and half pass

    Haunches out - you are bent in the direction you are going - similar to half pass - shoulder in - you are bent away from the direction you are travelling - like leg yielding.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Sooooo, is a SI just a HI in reverse? In other words, if you were SI tracking right, and ONLY reversed direction, would you then be doing HI?
    NO.

    First, the question was about haunches OUT, not Haunches IN.

    Second, if you are doing it going down an arbitrary line, haunches IN RIGHT is "the same" (except for the track) as Haunches OUT (Renvers) LEFT, and nirror image (except for the track) of Haunches OUT RIGHT.

    But neither the same, not mirror image, of shoulder in in either direction.

    Look at the figures in the rule book
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  7. #7
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    Horse is tracking straight ahead and to do SI you bend the shoulders in - rest of horse stays on the track.
    To do haunches out, the horse tracks straight ahead and you bend the haunches out, rest of horse stays on track.

    SI - you bend the front.
    HO/HI - you bend the back.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Sooooo, is a SI just a HI in reverse? In other words, if you were SI tracking right, and ONLY reversed direction, would you then be doing HI?
    No - you'd be doing shoulder out.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  9. #9
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    Wink

    In S/I the shoulders move in from the track. The hindquarters move staight ahead, on the track. In both H/I and H/O (renvers), the shoulders proceed straight but the hindquarters proceed on either a track away from the wall( H/I), or a track toward the wall(renvers). Renvers (H/O) being ridden with the forehand on a track a few lines from the wall. Unless, of course you are riding the quarter line and switching from renvers to travers, with a few strides of S/I thrown in as a suppling exercise.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.



  10. #10
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    Default

    Ok, note to self - stop trying to analyze dimensional questions when you're in the midst of a REALLY strong marguerita...

    It does NOT make you look good
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  11. #11
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    Default

    The USEF rule book has some very good illustrations and words that will help

    The term Haunches out does not exist in the Dressage vocabulary.

    The Renvers is usually developed out of the shoulder in ( as in 2nd 4) by changing the bend but not the relative tracks of the shoulders and haunches.
    _\\\\]
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    www.meanderingwa.blogspot.com



  12. #12
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    Default

    It's not just about the position the horse is in but also what they achieve and the purpose behind their use. You do a shoulder in for a different reason than you do a haunches in/out.



  13. #13
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    Default

    It's always interesting how confusing these movements can seem to be. First the simplification, there are only possible 4 lateral movements ,two which involve the shoulders and two which involve the haunches. In the absence of an arena,and say you ride in the middle of a desert without definitive borders the shoulders can only deviate to the left and to the right. Same with the haunches which can only displace to the left or to the right. The 'right' and 'left'we speak of here is relative to the straight line on which we ride in the desert. There can be no 'in' or 'out'. Exactly the same if we reverse the direction of the horse (a reciprocal direction). Now if we choose to ride a circle in our desert either, to the right or the left, then immediately there becomes an inside and an outside of that circle. The shoulder or haunch displacements we mentioned as being to the right, or to the left, simply change their names to shoulder-in if the displacement is to the inside of the circle or shoulder-out ( a fancy name called counter shoulder-in is used) if the shoulder displacement is to the outside of the circle. Same with the haunches; if the haunch is displaced to the inside of the circle it's called haunches-in (the fancy name for that is travers) and if it's displaced to the outside of the circle it's haunches-out (the fancy name being called renvers). Now if we ride inside an arena with four sides those four sides for the purpose of terminology mimic a circle. There's shoulder-in and counter shoulder-in and travers and renvers in relation to the lines formed by the arena. The shoulders and haunches however are simply only moving to their left, or their right, whatever the fancy name is. Now if we ride a straight centre line in the arena it's the same as riding that line in the desert. You either have left shoulder displacement or right shoulder displacement. For convention they are called right shoulder-in or left shoulder-in. For the haunches there is no convention as to what the displacements are called and so they are either haunch displacement left or right,just as we were in the desert.

    Secondly,to complicate the thinking, to transition from shoulder-in, in an arena, to travers the rider's legs only need change their emphasis but not their position while the horse must change it's legs to allow for the reversal of their crossing.
    To transition from shoulder-in to renvers requires the rider to reverse the position of his legs while the horse is not required to alter the crossing of it's legs.

    If there are therefore only 4 lateral movements (half-pass is a variant of travers), two each to the horse's left and to it's right involving either the shoulders or haunches then, in an arena, whilst riding travers (haunches-in) along the wall if we were to have the horse and rider combination picked up and set down going exactly in the opposite direction,without changing the bend, then we would be riding renvers (haunches-out).

    It is of course, I would agree, most important to understand the usefulness of these gymnastics but until we know what they're called, and how to ride them, it's difficult to do that,
    Hope this helps.



  14. #14
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    Default

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=178116

    look in the above link read bottom part page one and read link 8 9 10 11
    they are all about information of the si and ly and hI
    read jane savoire topic and also link 6 has diagrams of all movements
    of the si hi and ly

    all good info and tips



  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Equibrit View Post

    SI - you bend the front.
    HO/HI - you bend the back.
    A bit too simple for me. Ah, where is the old Dressage and CT magazine when you really need it. The biomechanics series in that journal were great. To be really technical, the horse is not really capable of "bending" through the rib cage/thoracic spine to a significant degree. So you can't really "bend the front "or "bend the back" conceptually speaking. Most of the apparent bend in shoulder in is from the freedom of the shoulders moving on the rib cage. Most of the apparent bend in renvers or travers (haunches out/in) is from the freedom through the hips, pelvis and stifles allowing the crossover of the hind legs. This is why these exercises are all developed slowly and by degrees, gradually suppling and allowing more apparent "bend" which comes from the stretching and strengthening of the various muscles allowing lateral movement and crossover. And why we start with an easier suppling exercise like leg yield before we ask for more stretch and bend as required in renvers, travers, shoulder in and half pass.
    "The Threat of Internet Ignorance: ... we are witnessing the rise of an age of equestrian disinformation, one where a trusting public can graze on nonsense packaged to look like fact."-LRG-AF



  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CatOnLap View Post
    To be really technical, the horse is not really capable of "bending" through the rib cage/thoracic spine to a significant degree. So you can't really "bend the front "or "bend the back" conceptually speaking.
    Conceptually speaking - in order to bring the shoulders "in" you would have to bend the spine in FRONT. Similarly the same would happen in Renvers in the BACK. Nobody made any reference to the thoracic spine, on which you should be sitting.

    The concept IS pretty simple, unfortunately people seem determined to complicate the issue.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoopoe View Post
    The term Haunches out does not exist in the Dressage vocabulary.
    There are many words that we use as description that "do not exist in the Dressage vocabulary". However, in order to teach/explain to a beginner the description of a movement makes a whole lot more sense than a "term" expressed in a foreign language. These "tems" for the most part just serve to intimidate beginners and complicate the issue, whilst feeding "superior" egos.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  18. #18
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    Default

    Thank you all so much for your replies!

    I think I understand it now, and received a few reading recommendations. Does anyone have any others?



  19. #19
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    I agree with Equibrit, so much of the common dressage explanations seem to be about making things a mystery. No wonder dressage has such a reputation for being difficult to understand.

    Shoulder in - move the shoulders to the inside of the track you are currently riding on. Haunches in - move the haunches to the inside of the track you are riding on. It's simple.

    As far as how to do, you need a trainer to help you because you will not know by feel what is correct until someone tells you yes! Or no! And then what has gone wrong and what/ how to fix it.

    And I highly recommend that if you find someone to work with and their explanations are complicated you move on. Dressage is not supposed to be a mystery only for the initiated to understand.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  20. #20
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    This is a good book for explanations; http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide.../dp/1561382019
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



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