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  1. #1
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    Default birth registry has priority?

    Is there an international rule where, if a horse is entered into more then one registry, the birth registry should be the dominant registry on record?



  2. #2
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    I dont think it's a rule.. but IMO it makes the most sense. Horses are registered in 1 registry, and entered into the stud books of others. (some call in dual- or tri- registered, but oh well). So if i have an Arabian/QH cross palomino, and he's registered with the AHA (Arabian) association, then I'd put Registered Half-Arabian and entered in the Quarab, half-QH and palomino registries. Or for TB stallion who is approved (for sake of examble) I'd say JC registered, approved by Old NA, AHHA, and ATA (if he was in those).

    But that's just me how I'd do it personally.



  3. #3
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    ...dominant registry on record
    What "record" are you referring to? And what breed?

    WBs are supposed to only hold registration papers from one registry, but breeding stock (mares and stallions) can also be approved for breeding by multiple registries. They are still known by their original breed, though. For instance, an Oldenburg mare approved for Hanoverian breeding will always be an Oldenburg.



  4. #4
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    breed not important, I thought it was some overall rule. When USDF All Breeds needed members to declare a horse in one registry, instead of multiple registries as was the policy for a while (more registries, more awards), I thought it was in compliance to an international rule with the first registry being the dominant one. Not clear if this is correct.

    This would be horses not used for breeding.

    Oldenburg mare approved for Hanoverian breeding: would mare have two sets of papers (Oldenburg, Hanoverian) ? Or Oldenburg papers only with approval for Hanoverian registry breeding.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    They are still known by their original breed, though. For instance, an Oldenburg mare approved for Hanoverian breeding will always be an Oldenburg.
    Define "Oldenburg Mare".

    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    This would be horses not used for breeding.
    Why then, would it be recorded in more than one registry ?
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    breed not important, I thought it was some overall rule. When USDF All Breeds needed members to declare a horse in one registry, instead of multiple registries as was the policy for a while (more registries, more awards), I thought it was in compliance to an international rule with the first registry being the dominant one. Not clear if this is correct.
    USDF told me a year or so ago that if a copy of the horse's registration papers are sent in with the USDF registration application, it will use the issuing organization for the All Breeds Declaration. I believe people sometimes select the wrong organization when registering online with USDF, and I assume there are instances where USDF doesn't catch this when it receives an actual copy of the papers, so the horse ends up with an All Breeds Declaration that doesn't match its birth registry. I don't know what would happen if someone asked to change the Declaration - would hope that USDF would require a copy of registration papers before making the change.

    Oldenburg mare approved for Hanoverian breeding: would mare have two sets of papers (Oldenburg, Hanoverian) ? Or Oldenburg papers only with approval for Hanoverian registry breeding.
    She should only have the original papers from her birth registry, usually stamped by the "approving" registry to show her approval date and marebook assignment. I believe there was a time when certain registries were - ahem - re-issuing papers when mares were approved into their registries, but I don't know if this practice is still going on.



  7. #7
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    For the USDF Awards, sometimes people will intentionally choose a registry other than the birth registry if they feel they have a better chance for an award from the second (smaller) registry, or if the birth registry doesn't participate in the USDF Awards program.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    For the USDF Awards, sometimes people will intentionally choose a registry other than the birth registry if they feel they have a better chance for an award from the second (smaller) registry, or if the birth registry doesn't participate in the USDF Awards program.
    Good point, and yes, that has happened in the past. I was told USDF was tightening up those requirements though and folks now MUST use the birth registry for an All Breeds Declaration unless that registry does not participate in the USDF Awards program. Registries also have the right to "purge" a horse from their declared lists if the horse doesn't belong there.



  9. #9
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    A registered Oldenburg mare approved for breeding with the AHS or HV does not make the mare registered with the AHS or HV. Most warmbloods are not double registered--it's against most rules.



  10. #10
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    What happens when you have a TB mare approved for Hanoverian breeding? Is she a TB or a Hanoverian?



  11. #11
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    A registered Oldenburg mare approved for breeding with the AHS or HV does not make the mare registered with the AHS or HV. Most warmbloods are not double registered--it's against most rules.
    Yes, I said pretty much the same thing in my earlier posts.

    What happens when you have a TB mare approved for Hanoverian breeding? Is she a TB or a Hanoverian?
    As stated earlier, a horse's "breed" is determined by its registration papers, which are usually issued when the horse is a foal (hence these papers are often referred to as "foal papers"). So a mare holding TB registration papers will always be a TB, even if she is approved for Hanoverian breeding or Oldenburg breeding or Dutch WB breeding, etc. Horses don't change "breeds" or registries when they get approved for breeding by another registry. Their FOALS however can be registered with the approving registry, providing the foal's sire is also approved by that registry (or eligible for approval - different registries have different rules on this).



  12. #12
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    Ahh...

    But you can have a horse with two Trakehner parents, who is *registered* Oldenburgh instead of Tk.

    Or, a Zwiebruken who is *registered* AWS.

    There's a difference between BREED registries and Verbands. Verbands were originally set up for regions in Germany/Europe. So it had much more to do with geography than "breed."

    A horse who is a true BREED like QH, Connemara, Welsh, Arab, TB... could theoretically have two registered parents, but be presented/recorded/approved as something else entirely (i.e. AWS/R, RPSI, etc.)

    While different Verbands have slightly different type preferences, there is so much crossing within them, they are NOT breeds.

    Registration as we are used to it in the US is for 'purebred' or half-bred animals. Usually one parent must be a purebred.

    The Verbands were tasked to RECORD any horse presented to them. RPSI still does! You can bring a Fjord or a grade horse, and you will get an RPSI "number." That has nothing to do with approveal for breeding etc., but it is a 'registration' of sorts. AWS also will 'record' all horses presented. That does NOT mean they are all "approved." There is much misunderstanding about this, and that is part of the angst of AWS vs. other registries.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    Ahh...

    But you can have a horse with two Trakehner parents, who is *registered* Oldenburgh instead of Tk.

    Or, a Zwiebruken who is *registered* AWS.

    There's a difference between BREED registries and Verbands. Verbands were originally set up for regions in Germany/Europe. So it had much more to do with geography than "breed."

    A horse who is a true BREED like QH, Connemara, Welsh, Arab, TB... could theoretically have two registered parents, but be presented/recorded/approved as something else entirely (i.e. AWS/R, RPSI, etc.)

    While different Verbands have slightly different type preferences, there is so much crossing within them, they are NOT breeds.

    Registration as we are used to it in the US is for 'purebred' or half-bred animals. Usually one parent must be a purebred.

    The Verbands were tasked to RECORD any horse presented to them. RPSI still does! You can bring a Fjord or a grade horse, and you will get an RPSI "number." That has nothing to do with approveal for breeding etc., but it is a 'registration' of sorts. AWS also will 'record' all horses presented. That does NOT mean they are all "approved." There is much misunderstanding about this, and that is part of the angst of AWS vs. other registries.
    Totally agree....about breed vs registry.

    The other "closed" studbooks I'm aware of are TB, Arab, Trakehner, QH, Lusitano, PRE.....there are others.

    So, for the purposes of a USDF All Breeds Award program, can the little Fjord compete as an RPSI if it has RPSI papers? (theoretical question)

    Can a Tk compete as a Hanoverian (such as Abglanz,the famous Tk stallion that started the Hanoverian A line)

    Would Abglanz compete as a Tk or Hano in USDF All Breeds Program?



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    But you can have a horse with two Trakehner parents, who is *registered* Oldenburgh instead of Tk.
    This horse would be an Oldenburg. It may have pure Trakehner bloodlines, but if it holds Oldenburg foal registration papers, it is an Oldenburg.

    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    Or, a Zwiebruken who is *registered* AWS.
    So AWS is one of the registries that re-issues registration papers for horses "recorded" with them? Even if the horse holds foal registration papers from another registry? Even so, if the horse holds RPS or RPSI (Zweibr├╝cken) FOAL REGISTRATION papers, it is a Zweibr├╝cken - even if it is later "recorded" with AWS.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    So, for the purposes of a USDF All Breeds Award program, can the little Fjord compete as an RPSI if it has RPSI papers? (theoretical question)
    Not sure that RPSI would issue registration papers for a Fjord. Maybe one of the RPSI experts on this forum will chime in.

    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    Can a Tk compete as a Hanoverian (such as Abglanz,the famous Tk stallion that started the Hanoverian A line) Would Abglanz compete as a Tk or Hano in USDF All Breeds Program?
    Abglanz would/should have competed as a TK, since he held Trakehner foal registration papers. He did not become a Hanoverian when he was approved for Hanoverian breeding - he remained a Trakehner for his full life because that is how he was registered as a foal.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    What happens when you have a TB mare approved for Hanoverian breeding? Is she a TB or a Hanoverian?
    TB always.

    Breeding approval is entirely separate from breed registry.

    Now, you can have a TBxOld foal registered Old (assuming both parents are approved Old), and also with PHR, but those are entirely separate worlds.

    But you can't register the TBxOld foal, where both parents are approved Old and Hano for example, and ALSO register the foal Hano. Only 1 when it comes to the WB registries.
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  17. #17
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    The point that several of us are trying to make is that being a approved by a registry does not been they are actually registered by that registry!



  18. #18
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    As others have said, the "foal papers" are the horse's "breed". We raise Zweibrucken horses and their foal papers are Zweibrucken papers regardless of their parents foal papers. Because their parents are APPROVED for Zweibrucken breeding, their foals are Zweibrucken.

    And no a Fjord could not be a Zweibrucker. RPSI Approves (real) Warmbloods, TBs, Arabians and Shagyas. Yes, there are some odd-ball crosses and breeds RECORDED due to EU rules, but they are NOT approved.



  19. #19
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    I agree, the horse's birth registry / initial registry determines the breed. However there is no limit to how many registries a horse can be "approved" or "recorded" with.

    sm, I wonder if what you are thinking of is the international UELN? (Universal Equine Life Number.) The birth registry / initial registry is the registry which issues the UELN, and a horse may only have one UELN.

    The UELN is nice in that it tells you the horse's birth country, breed registry, and also its individual registration number (which usually incorporates the year of birth.) For example, here's the number of one of my this year's foals: 840039020107017. From this number I can tell he was born in the US, he is a Friesian Sporthorse with the Friesian Sporthorse Association, and his individual registration number is 20107017, which tells me he was born in 2010.

    For USDF All-Breeds, a horse which is registered / recorded / approved with multiple registries is not required to declare the birth registry / initial registry / UELN issuing registry for All-Breeds purposes.
    River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.



  20. #20
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    Yes, there are some odd-ball crosses and breeds RECORDED due to EU rules, but they are NOT approved.
    This whole EU thing may have caused alot of unintentional confusion, I think. Now that many (most? all?) registries are issuing COP's, it is causing some confusion from people who think if a horse has a COP from RegistryABC then therefore it is BreedABC.
    River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.



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