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  1. #1621
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    May. 30, 2010
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    And in my many years of transitioning retired tb's into the private sector...... I have Never considered selling to 4-H or even PC, I sold to IHSA, but they were certainly advanced students under more than competent instructors.
    4-h really has no purpose for tb's.
    Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
    Racing>Business As Usual @PN



  2. #1622
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    Dec. 28, 2004
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    Six-burgh baby!
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    I've been reading along with this thread for quite some time. I've not spoken up mostly because I'm not very involved in racing. I have a very small tie to it and I enjoy watching but that's about it.

    However, I can't help but ask what this thread is all about? I know what it started out to be but it's become, well, a finger pointing snarkfest. I can't help but wonder if this is really helping the horses?

    I don't know SB or MG or anyone other trainers at Penn or any other racetrack. Not personally anyway. What I do know, what everyone "knows", is what these and many other trainers have done with their "unwanted" horses. But is rehashing what they have done really fixing the future? No!!

    Yes, they need to admit what they did in order to "take the first step..." but lets for arguments sake say they don't ever admit it. Can the future still be fixed? Yes!! This thread should be hashing out options for these trainers, putting together people who can make a difference etc. Pointing fingers at one trainer isn't getting anyone anywhere. Coming down on one poster for their opinion and spending all the energy and time on attacking that person also isn't helping the horses.

    Please for one minute consider the facts of business. Every company has rules. Every company has a bottom dollar. Every company has disposable assets. Unfortunately horse racings rules, bottom dollare and disposable assets are basically summed up as the horses. Tracks don't make it easy on these trainers to keep horses until they find better homes. Foster care would take a lot of time for trainers to organize-time they don't have and can't afford to "waste". Is shipping horses to slaughter the right solution to this problem? NO! It's up to us, the voice of the horse, to find the right solution.

    However wrong I think slaughter is really isn't the point. Fact is, business is business no matter what that business actually is. If each trainer were emotionally involved they most likely wouldn't be very successful trainers. Doesn't mean they have to send horses to slaughter but I can see how they would turn a blind eye and "pretend" it doesn't happen. Now it's time to help them help the horses. The tracks/racing as a sport need to fix their end (which they are slowly doing). As they do that, the trainers will learn to follow suit. As the trainers learn to make changes to how they do their business the masses, us, need to be there for the horses.

    So, how about this thread gets back on the resolution track and leaves the station where it's going nowhere while it rehashes the past which is just a waste of precious time?? Anyone up for trying to resolve the problems???
    Lord Stanely, Lord Stanley - come back to Pittsburgh!!!
    http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/2_tbs
    *** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB***



  3. #1623
    Join Date
    Jan. 24, 2000
    Location
    Bolton Valley, Vermont USA
    Posts
    721

    Default TBs for 4-H

    <<<SwtVixen : "4-h really has no purpose for tb's". >>>

    Hi All,
    I hate to disagree, but I have successfully transitioned several OTTBs from the track to 4-H programs and students. It's not always easy, sometimes it doesn't work, but occasionally I hit a home run.

    It all depends on the horse, the rider, and the 4-H leader. The times it has worked have given me such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment and happiness. To see a 4-Her mounted on an OTTB who just raced a few months before is such a thrill.

    One horse I bred and had at the track, Bobcat, LOVED his 4-H gal. They developed a bond that went deep and brought joy to all who saw them compete. Bobcat, as a 4 year-old, even qualified for Eastern States, a remarkable accomplishment. The story has a sad ending though - Bobcat colicked at 6 and could not be saved. I cried for days.

    On another topic - a few pages back AC4H was being discussed. The initials stand for 'Another Chance For (4) Horses.' It is not related to 4-H. And, Christy, the head of the organization who took a beating on this board, helped me so much I can't begin to explain.

    Hallie I. McEvoy
    Racing Dreams, LLC

    "Places to go, people to annoy."



  4. #1624
    Join Date
    Jul. 6, 2005
    Posts
    1,142

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    Quote Originally Posted by haligator View Post
    <<<SwtVixen : "4-h really has no purpose for tb's". >>>

    Hi All,
    I hate to disagree, but I have successfully transitioned several OTTBs from the track to 4-H programs and students. It's not always easy, sometimes it doesn't work, but occasionally I hit a home run.

    It all depends on the horse, the rider, and the 4-H leader.
    I'm with Haligator on this. Doesn't always or even often work. But it can & when it does, it is a beautiful thing.
    Hidden Echo Farm, Carlisle, PA -- home of JC palomino sire Canadian Kid (1990 - 2013) & AQHA sire Lark's Favorite, son of Rugged Lark.



  5. #1625
    Join Date
    Jun. 5, 2006
    Posts
    952

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    There is no question that lots of TBs can and do work for 4h'ers and PC'ers-- the key word is "transitioning"- these horses are going directly to some "4H" club- who shall remain nameless I guess, we havent been able to find out who it might be- no transitioning mentioned......



  6. #1626
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    Jun. 6, 2010
    Posts
    347

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    For those who think Penn National is unique on this policy, check out Sufferin' Downs
    http://www.bluemassgroup.com/diary/1...l-takes-credit
    Maybe it's time for all of these tracks to just get rid of these un-enforcable policies.

    Nice try, makes for good press but they have no intention of ever seriously enforcing any of it.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  7. #1627
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    22,273

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    Profidia that has been my belief all along. Nothing but a press release designed to drum up some PR. That is of course excluding the few tracks that do offer an alternative like Finger Lakes and Philly Park. Its one thing to tell someone not to do something, its another thing completely to say don't do that, but you can do this. Anything short of that is lip service.



  8. #1628
    Join Date
    May. 30, 2010
    Posts
    231

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    haligator>It all depends on the horse, the rider, and the 4-H leader.

    Absolutely true! And that was point, that it takes special people, they are rare -- but to think of just openly and initially marketing green ottbs directly to(any)kids --- just isnt realistic or safe for either horse or rider.
    As life is known to have a bell curve in all events --- there are those expections and exceptional riders, talented enough to reach into the heart of a ottb and find the best talents of all.
    When the PN retraining program has horses ready for rehoming, it will be interesting to keep a study of what kind of rider? what kind of discpline? what skill level is most common of new owners? and how long did it take to retrain the horse to that *sale*? Those will be some interesting facts.
    Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
    Racing>Business As Usual @PN



  9. #1629
    Join Date
    Jun. 6, 2010
    Posts
    347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    Profidia that has been my belief all along. Nothing but a press release designed to drum up some PR. That is of course excluding the few tracks that do offer an alternative like Finger Lakes and Philly Park. Its one thing to tell someone not to do something, its another thing completely to say don't do that, but you can do this. Anything short of that is lip service.
    Correct.
    So for those who have lost track of where the thread has gone here's where we're at. Penn National has an equally un enforcable policy. However, they revoked Delahoussaye's stalls over it, tried real hard to throw out Murray Rojas forcing her to go to much trouble to prove she didn't do as they said she did. Caught Stephanie Beatty red-handed and did nothing except bend over backwards to defend her. The corrupt way that track operates allows them to selectively apply this policy to some and not others.

    This is the way that track works. This is in keeping with the topic. Posting links for killer plant vids and going off on emotion laden tangents is not. This is why me and a few others have urged the anti-killer plant crusaders to start another thread about that.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  10. #1630
    Join Date
    Apr. 6, 2010
    Location
    San Diego, CA
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    2,084

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    Here's an idea for the rehabbing and what would make these guys marketable.
    TB Retrain wish list:
    1. Clean legged, sane individuals of any age:
    A. Dressage level 1
    B. Hunter baby greens
    C. Maybe jumping low level course only
    D. Cross Country work
    These are the horses that don't need that much of a letdown and if you’re lucky already have a decent w/t and if possible a canter. These horses qualify for the young horse awards in the Dressage and paired with the amateur could do the low level dressage, a chance at the great hunters and beginning eventing.
    2. Clean legged, need let down individuals of any age:
    A. Cross Country work
    B. Lounge line work
    C. Trail riding
    These are the horses that need a bit of a letdown but are not dangerous to the expert handler.
    3. Need rehab and stall rest
    A. Work on ground manners
    B. Trick train
    These horses are limited by injury but they can still get one on one training and anything that will make them stand out will be helpful.
    4. Pasture Sound Only
    A. Babysitter
    B. Trick Train
    Be realistic about this group and only the stellar individuals have a place here. A gelding that can put manners on the colts is invaluable to the breeders but not many others. Trick Training is great but can he be sound enough to do outreach work?
    Now I rode Western for most of my life and I am sure there might be one or two TBs that would be competitive at those events but I doubt it. They just aren't built for what the QHs can do.

    Just some ideas and I am steadily working on increasing my knowledge about OTTBs and what if anything would make them attractive to riders or trainers.
    Adoring fan of A Fine Romance
    Originally Posted by alicen:
    What serious breeder would think that a horse at that performance level is push button? Even so, that's still a lot of buttons to push.



  11. #1631
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2000
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    Now In the Sandhills, NC mostly
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    6,799

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    FWIW and IME, Delaware Park comes down pretty hard on people selling horses to slaughter. I know of several people who have been removed from the track. they just don't tend to advertise it, which tells me they are not worried about the PR.



  12. #1632
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    Oct. 14, 2000
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    Now In the Sandhills, NC mostly
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    Leilatgrass,
    OTTBs are extremely marketable to the public before they are broken down and crippled.
    I have a list a mile long of people who are looking for clean-legged/breathing sound geldings who don't crib.

    The people who are dumping horses for slaughter either don't want to deal with the public, or know that the horses are so trashed that they are good for nothing.

    SwtVxn, those facts are there for the taking, just ask the groups who have been doing it for years and years--CANTER, New Vocations, MAHR, etc.



  13. #1633
    Join Date
    Feb. 24, 2010
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Profidia View Post
    For those who think Penn National is unique on this policy, check out Sufferin' Downs
    http://www.bluemassgroup.com/diary/1...l-takes-credit
    Maybe it's time for all of these tracks to just get rid of these un-enforcable policies.

    Nice try, makes for good press but they have no intention of ever seriously enforcing any of it.
    The MA casino and slots bill is very agenda-driven and has created a lot of rancor, as well as propaganda. That article conveniently omits further steps Suffolk has taken to back up their anti-slaughter policies. Such mandatory requirements include: attendance at an education seminar on retiring horses; use of a uniform bill of sale for all horses changing hands; and the purchase of their own retirement farm, in addition to financial support of other retirement farms in MA. Canter NE is active there, perhaps one of their members can shed more light on whether Suffolk takes their policies seriously or not.



  14. #1634
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2010
    Location
    Mid-Atlantic region
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    152

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    This may be old news -- apologies if it is. But Tony Adamo was apparently restored as a trainer in good standing in PA on 7/23. At least that's the gist of this Ontario ruling:

    http://www.woodbineentertainment.com...%20Anthony.pdf



  15. #1635
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    May. 30, 2010
    Posts
    231

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    Fairweather I was making reference to PN's results.
    and see how well they keep up withthe standards already set.

    >When the PN retraining program has horses ready for rehoming, it will be interesting to keep a study of what kind of rider? what kind of discpline? what skill level is most common of new owners? and how long did it take to retrain the horse to that *sale*? Those will be some interesting facts.
    Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
    Racing>Business As Usual @PN



  16. #1636
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2009
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    4,504

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    leilatirgress:These horses are limited by injury but they can still get one on one training and anything that will make them stand out will be helpful.
    4. Pasture Sound Only
    A. Babysitter
    B. Trick Train
    Try to GIVE away a sound cute 4yr gelding who can not be ridden, has non-operable wind problems and needs farrier maintance..NOT The above listed horses will take money and time away from those who can do a job but no room at the inn because of those who won't ever move.

    Fairweather:The people who are dumping horses for slaughter either don't want to deal with the public, or know that the horses are so trashed that they are good for nothing.
    You have said what so many of us are trying to get across. If its of re-sale value CANTER will still be posting them. The ones who go to the program will be less viable.
    Take a look at New Vocations site. The horses for the most part all have a limitation. New Vocations is an EXCELLANT program but they work with what they get.


    A sound clean legged decent moving sane horse will get a home.
    The 15.2 and under crooked broken bad winded vice ridden have so much less of a chance anywhere.
    Last edited by judybigredpony; Aug. 10, 2010 at 04:39 PM. Reason: quote



  17. #1637
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    Oct. 14, 2000
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    Now In the Sandhills, NC mostly
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    Well, I'd agree to a point, but the fact is we get some damn nice horses (sound, clean, minimal racing, no breathing), they just sell immediately to the aforementioned list the ones with issues (or perceived issues) tend to linger.

    I would be willing to guess that New Vocations is in the same situation.

    I literally have a list of folks I can call (who have gotten pre-approval) who are waiting in line for one of these:
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/CANTER...&ref=fbx_album

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/CANTER...&ref=fbx_album

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/CANTER...&ref=fbx_album

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/CANTER...&ref=fbx_album

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/CANTER...&ref=fbx_album

    These are just a few--we get LOVELY animals, and they are usually coming from people who either 1) want their horse place appropriately and don't care about the measly 2k, 2) are in a jam and need a horse gone 3) we have a long standing relationship with.

    But yes, I agree, the broken down horses have nowhere to go.



  18. #1638
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    Jun. 6, 2010
    Posts
    347

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    Quote Originally Posted by Third Glance View Post
    This may be old news -- apologies if it is. But Tony Adamo was apparently restored as a trainer in good standing in PA on 7/23. At least that's the gist of this Ontario ruling:

    http://www.woodbineentertainment.com...%20Anthony.pdf
    I'll check with Dickie but if I'm not mistaken I think he served the suspension time they gave him.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010



  19. #1639
    Join Date
    May. 30, 2010
    Posts
    231

    Unhappy GRRR,.... I am so mad at this article in Pa Eq.

    I feel like contacting this editor and telling her that this one mans *opinion* isnt all correct, in fact very little of it is-- and to post something as damning as this when so many hard worked for efforts to promote rehoming the TB have just been put in place... is really sad and dishonorable for a HORSE magazine in this area.
    Maybe a rebuttal is in order.!

    I could edit this with lots of little red footnotes..
    I KNOW trainers that have their horses stand, mount from the ground. I personally worked with trainer/rider who insisted we teach a string to mount from haybales.! standing still. ALL my retrains stand to *everything* ..not just mount, but groom, tack. for farrier.. this is NOT uncommon.
    ALL my retrains go immediately out on the trail.(actually out there is mild compared to the chaos of training and race nights). No spook, No antics...they even go swimming right away. I have 3 horses going to a show Sunday --entered for schooling and low hunters --that only arrived on the farm 2 weeks ago!

    I witness every day, horses walking quietly to the track, loose rein swinging off the neck, no contact. I've seen riders pull up to chat to someone, horse stands for the duration, and a light touch to move on when done. Those same horses act in that same manner on the farm as retrains.
    Im sure we could compile a huge list of other positive things tb's do on a daily basis... stand on the wall, stand to quietly tack, untack, bathe, clip, load... walk the shedrow. etc..

    And I dont take the credit for many things the retrains do, it goes to the horses initial training...to which I'm benefitting from . Many (let me say -- Majority) trainers apply good training technique, I dont believe its that uncommon a thing....! perhaps Bob Wood, the author of this article, should spend a working day at the track in order to get his facts straight...
    and the editor should join him.


    http://www.pennsylvaniaequestrian.co...Racehorses.php
    Its not in someone elses backyard anymore....... your Pres brought it home.
    Racing>Business As Usual @PN



  20. #1640
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2006
    Location
    Southeast Pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,115

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwtVixen View Post
    I feel like contacting this editor and telling her that this one mans *opinion* isnt all correct, in fact very little of it is-- and to post something as damning as this when so many hard worked for efforts to promote rehoming the TB have just been put in place... is really sad and dishonorable for a HORSE magazine in this area.
    Maybe a rebuttal is in order.!

    I could edit this with lots of little red footnotes..
    I KNOW trainers that have their horses stand, mount from the ground. I personally worked with trainer/rider who insisted we teach a string to mount from haybales.! standing still. ALL my retrains stand to *everything* ..not just mount, but groom, tack. for farrier.. this is NOT uncommon.
    ALL my retrains go immediately out on the trail.(actually out there is mild compared to the chaos of training and race nights). No spook, No antics...they even go swimming right away. I have 3 horses going to a show Sunday --entered for schooling and low hunters --that only arrived on the farm 2 weeks ago!

    I witness every day, horses walking quietly to the track, loose rein swinging off the neck, no contact. I've seen riders pull up to chat to someone, horse stands for the duration, and a light touch to move on when done. Those same horses act in that same manner on the farm as retrains.
    Im sure we could compile a huge list of other positive things tb's do on a daily basis... stand on the wall, stand to quietly tack, untack, bathe, clip, load... walk the shedrow. etc..

    And I dont take the credit for many things the retrains do, it goes to the horses initial training...to which I'm benefitting from . Many (let me say -- Majority) trainers apply good training technique, I dont believe its that uncommon a thing....! perhaps Bob Wood, the author of this article, should spend a working day at the track in order to get his facts straight...
    and the editor should join him.


    http://www.pennsylvaniaequestrian.co...Racehorses.php
    wonder why he's had so much trouble with re-training race horses. Perhaps every one he's had was not broke properly to begin with. I don't think it was the race training that made his horses like that.



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