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  1. #1

    Default Sex Balanced Line Breeding

    Can we make a collection of pedigrees that are Sex Balanced Line bred?


    I think I'll start.. if wrong, please correct me. I'm trying to understand where in the pedigree the common stallion needs to show up to be a 'true' sex balanced line breeding.

    I'll use my own mare as an example since she has World Cup fairly close up and it seems to be easy to find stallions with World Cup close up as well.

    Here is what "I" think it is: True/False?

    Here's one of her past foals Windwalker:
    http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10954949
    www.northgeorgiasporthorses.com
    We have moved to Texas!



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    BITS - if you haven't had a read of this website, then you'll find it interesting - here's a link to siblings in the pedigree

    http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/siblings.html



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    The point of sex balanced line breeding is the possibility of homozygous gene expression and passage.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    Can we make a collection of pedigrees that are Sex Balanced Line bred?


    I think I'll start.. if wrong, please correct me. I'm trying to understand where in the pedigree the common stallion needs to show up to be a 'true' sex balanced line breeding.

    I'll use my own mare as an example since she has World Cup fairly close up and it seems to be easy to find stallions with World Cup close up as well.

    Here is what "I" think it is: True/False?

    Here's one of her past foals Windwalker:
    http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10954949
    You could "Call" this sex balanced linebreeding since WC appears in the fatherline as well as the motherline but it's not really. Sex balanced linebreeding is when you would have a WC son and a WC daughter.

    The Holsteiner Stallion Canto is a perfect example of sex balanced line breeding to Caletto I . His pedigree is Canturo / Limbus / Caletto I.....here we have the Caletto I son Cantus which is the grandfather of Canto and the Caletto I grandmother Flair I .


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    Bayhawk is right. To be sex balanced, the genes must come from both a son and daughter of the doubled line.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10868922

    this is, well was, and hopefully will be next year, a future foal I am breeding - sex balanced on Palma (through a son in the sire line and a daughter through the mare line) and line bred on Donauwind (through his sons Abdullah and Matador on the sire and dam lines and a daughter, Reglette, on the sire line).
    Last edited by Molly Malone; Sep. 8, 2013 at 01:32 PM. Reason: added info



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    Here is an example of a line-bred pedigree - Arabian mare, but definitely the product of a breeder's LT planned focus on the stallion Fadjur. He is in the 4-gen pedigree 4x.

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inde...mall_font=1&l=



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    Forgive me for my ignorance on breeding, as I have never bred. Lately I have been "studying", so to speak, and have been very curious to learn more about certain breeding practices. I understand linebreeding to an extent. But forgive me for my inquiry, when you breed a close relative it obviously narrows down the gene pool diversity - do any "malign" effects (IE defects) to inbreeding/line breeding ever happen? As I am imagining close siblings being bred in cats and the effects thereof are not usually very flattering... Obviously horses are different in most that I've seen with linebreeding/inbreeding up close have no gross defects.. how come?

    For instance, I looked at Canto's pedigree -- and the amount of line-breeding inbreeding stunned me - especially since to my untrained eyes, it looks as if all of the inbreeding for certain ancestry (Landgraf I, Cor De La Bryere, etc) happen up fairly close and very prominent in the pedigree.. Obviously Canto is remarkably talented and a beautiful horse, but how on God's green did he not inherit a defect common with inbreeding?

    ETA: Just got to the Ramiro page and.. What?!
    Achill's sire and dam were 1/2 brother and sister, both out of Brilliant, a Yorkshire Coach Horse (which means at least 68 lines of him). Brilliant's own dam was out of a full brother and sister! And these siblings carried Burlington Turk, who is also here in Achill's dam, so even more inbreeding. Most breeds start with inbreeding- even incest like you see here, for it consolidates the genes, and gives a reproducible type.
    My mind hurts..
    Last edited by beowulf; Sep. 8, 2013 at 05:14 PM.
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012


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    Here is my sex balanced breeding to Wolkenstein II. http://sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=...ime=1378673261

    I got a colt but I'm very tempted to try again for my filly.



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    This is Nearco, bred by a true master of breeding. If you look at his pedigree, you will see St. Simon himself top and bottom in the 4th generation, and also two of his daughters, top and bottom in the fourth generation:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/nearco

    Most linebreeding is done in the 3rd, 4th and 5th generations. Here's Roberto's pedigree, which is very heavily linebred in those generations:
    http://www.pedigreequery.com/roberto

    He's got Mumtaz Begum through a daughter on top and a son on the bottom. The rest of his linebreeding is top and bottom, but not sex balanced.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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    Here is Canto the stallion Bayhawk mentions above..
    http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10420370
    www.northgeorgiasporthorses.com
    We have moved to Texas!



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    So what's to stop incestual offspring from having deformities? Since obviously, if both parents possess a recessive deleterious trait, wouldn't it affect (and be present) in offspring?
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012



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    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
    Forgive me for my ignorance on breeding, as I have never bred. Lately I have been "studying", so to speak, and have been very curious to learn more about certain breeding practices. I understand linebreeding to an extent. But forgive me for my inquiry, when you breed a close relative it obviously narrows down the gene pool diversity - do any "malign" effects (IE defects) to inbreeding/line breeding ever happen? As I am imagining close siblings being bred in cats and the effects thereof are not usually very flattering... Obviously horses are different in most that I've seen with linebreeding/inbreeding up close have no gross defects.. how come?

    For instance, I looked at Canto's pedigree -- and the amount of line-breeding inbreeding stunned me - especially since to my untrained eyes, it looks as if all of the inbreeding for certain ancestry (Landgraf I, Cor De La Bryere, etc) happen up fairly close and very prominent in the pedigree.. Obviously Canto is remarkably talented and a beautiful horse, but how on God's green did he not inherit a defect common with inbreeding?

    ETA: Just got to the Ramiro page and.. What?!


    My mind hurts..
    Cats are not selectively bred. Well, probably not in the case you are thinking of.
    When you line bred you are increasing the chances of inheritance of the animals genes that you are line breeding. If the original horses are relatively defect free, than it isn't a problem condensing those genes. It isn't like line breeding changes genes or creates issues, it just condenses them. But if they are not present to start with, then it isn't such a problem. Besides, it is possible to cull if an animal does end up with some double recessive issues. If you look at Arabs or Morgans there is also huge line breeding and those are examples of some healthy horses with longevity.
    One more example: http://sporthorse-data.com/d?i=650186



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    I figured cats were a poor example, but seemed most befitting off the top of my head.. Rats would be another example of condensing a gene pool to alienate and study an inbreeding coefficient, but I was sure it didn't end well for the rats either?

    So if linebreeding continues to condense genes, wouldn't it be more likely that underlying issues (i.e recessive defects that may have never been expressed before because they were not met with another pairing) become prevalent?

    Breeding is a new world to me, so I am sorry for the questions. I think line-breeding is fascinating and it definitely makes sense to me now why people would sex balance a breeding line -- to ensure the desired trait has the best potential of maxing out. I just wondered if it wouldn't cause other expressions to happen too?
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012



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    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
    I figured cats were a poor example, but seemed most befitting off the top of my head.. Rats would be another example of condensing a gene pool to alienate and study an inbreeding coefficient, but I was sure it didn't end well for the rats either?

    So if linebreeding continues to condense genes, wouldn't it be more likely that underlying issues (i.e recessive defects that may have never been expressed before because they were not met with another pairing) become prevalent?

    Breeding is a new world to me, so I am sorry for the questions. I think line-breeding is fascinating and it definitely makes sense to me now why people would sex balance a breeding line -- to ensure the desired trait has the best potential of maxing out. I just wondered if it wouldn't cause other expressions to happen too?
    Don't ever be sorry for asking questions.

    Do not attempt line breeding unless you are very , very familiar with the horses you are line breeding to. The example I provided to you was a "safe" sex balanced line breeding to Caletto as they had already evaluated hundreds of offspring of Caletto across various studbooks.

    Also , Holstein has some of most heavily condensed genes (through line breeding) in their mare band. Consequently , most agree they have the best mares in the world. Other studbooks are taking great advantage of this concentration and bringing in a stallion or mare of hybrid vigor (fresh genes) and the result is immediate. Cornet Obolensky is a prime example. He is by a Holsteiner Stallion and out of a Dutch mother. He is producing like mad ! His children are all over the top of the sport.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayhawk View Post
    Don't ever be sorry for asking questions.

    Do not attempt line breeding unless you are very , very familiar with the horses you are line breeding to. The example I provided to you was a "safe" sex balanced line breeding to Caletto as they had already evaluated hundreds of offspring of Caletto across various studbooks.

    Also , Holstein has some of most heavily condensed genes (through line breeding) in their mare band. Consequently , most agree they have the best mares in the world. Other studbooks are taking great advantage of this concentration and bringing in a stallion or mare of hybrid vigor (fresh genes) and the result is immediate. Cornet Obolensky is a prime example. He is by a Holsteiner Stallion and out of a Dutch mother. He is producing like mad ! His children are all over the top of the sport.
    Thank you for the answer! Don't worry, I will no means be breeding anytime soon, I am just curious about the science behind it.

    That was my next question - hybrid vigor - would this type of trait be stronger when outcrossed with a certain strain, IE, maybe with a very condensed gene-pool (like what you see in Holstein mares), like what is now demonstrated with Cornet Obolensky? Or is it better to keep linebreeding/inbreeding until "critical mass" is reached? What then happens?
    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012



  17. #17
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    How about this one:

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=1...lood=10&quota=

    Also combines two great damlines - Marbel and Landshaft
    Cindy Bergmann
    Canterbury Court
    559-903-4814
    www.canterbury-court.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
    Thank you for the answer! Don't worry, I will no means be breeding anytime soon, I am just curious about the science behind it.

    That was my next question - hybrid vigor - would this type of trait be stronger when outcrossed with a certain strain, IE, maybe with a very condensed gene-pool (like what you see in Holstein mares), like what is now demonstrated with Cornet Obolensky? Or is it better to keep linebreeding/inbreeding until "critical mass" is reached? What then happens?
    Well , there is more than one way to breed top horses. The very condensed gene that Holstein possesses has them ranked #1 in the world again with the most recent studbook ranking.

    I personally believe hybrid vigor needs to be introduced to the motherline every 3 or 4 generations.



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    yes that is good but what would be even better would be to choose a stallion with Brentano 11 or beltain - that would give you both a son and daughter of the mare Ganseliesel which creates a filly factor - all good stallions and broodmares need these to be good producers

    Paula mc



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    Quote Originally Posted by Canterbury Court View Post
    How about this one:

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10617279&blood=10"a=

    Also combines two great damlines - Marbel and Landshaft
    This one is not sex balanced in the first five because the only doubled lines are son and son and daughter and daughter. Woermann comes in twice through sons and Absatz through daughters. It is top and bottom balanced, just not sex balanced.
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