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  1. #21
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    That's a great analysis, DRVMB1ggl3, and I agree with it 100%. I know that most of the German warmblood studs have welcomed selective TB's such as Coconut Grove and Lauries Crusader who have lightened, refined, and added "blood" to the modern Hanoverian.

    I've shown my youngsters in the USEA'S Future Event Horse program since its inception, though the youngsters tend to sell later into show jumping, show hunter, or dressage homes where young horse developers and owners tend to pay better prices than is the norm for eventers purchasing young prospects.

    I would like to hear from the breeders of US eventing horses bred specifically for that to know how well their young horses sell to eventers and what pricing works for them in selling young prospects to eventers. I'm really aware of the breeding programs but not with demand for, and pricing of, the young horses and whether or not there is a demand at all until the youngsters are eventing at the lower levels at least or in the YEH program.



  2. #22
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    Dec. 9, 2008
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    DRVMB1ggl3 - Great Post. As someone who started off breeding for eventers I have to repeat the question above. Who is going to buy and at what price. The cost of breeding is way to high to not have enough buyers on the other end willing to pay. It is one of the reasons I gave up and chose to breed just for jumpers. It seems to be a pride thing in eventing to have found the diamond in the ruff, essentially having saved them from doom. Although I believe you can breed for the sport, I would only suggest it if you were doing it for your own horses. Most want them already performing novice or better before they start paying any descent money. It is a loosing business model and I would caution anyone before they start. Until the eventing world is willing to pay good money for prospects like they do in dressage and jumping, they will have to continue purchasing them from failed efforts in other disciplines.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  3. #23
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    Feb. 4, 2003
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    Oxford, MD USA
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    Diane,
    Not to hijhack the thread but
    My babies do not sell to eventers, as most of them want something they can ride NOW, for cheap - usually an OTTB. As you said, my babies tend to sell to dressage homes primarily, and then find their way back to eventing later on when the first owner finds out that a young horse needs training and that they won't be able to ride it anyway... I try to breed allrounders, so that they can do both , although I know that is not regarded too highly anymore

    That being said, I wonder how much you breed an eventer and how many of them are really made - a horse with the guts and heart can do so much in this sport - even if not the most talented, while a talented superstar might find it too much work
    Ive done the FEH and YEH classes and don't find they really promote anything. I get more pride out of doing it with my babies than getting any benefits besides accomplishment and a nice schooling for the youngsters. There are no spectators and no real interest besides the people competing. - even the Championships

    As far as pricing, I see Novice horses going for 10-15k, so when I ask 8-10k for a baby, it is seen as way too expensive for an event prospect - esp when you have to wait for 3 years to ride and 4 to compete. I usually get a few inquiries, but little in the way of sales.

    As Tim said, not sure that marketing for the event world makes sense economically. I end up breaking and riding mine that I keep and get some recognition that way but I think a marketing plan based solely on eventing prospects won't work.

    I was fortunate to win the USEF Leading event breeder last year, and I haven't had people knocking down my door looking for horses yet.... ( and I have a couple of nice event bred foals out of competition horses on the ground)



  4. #24
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    Aug. 28, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drvmb1ggl3 View Post
    I doubt there is one serious Holsteiner breeder, or any WB or sport horse breeder for that matter, that would say that the modern sporthorse is wonderful "despite" the TB blood that courses through it's veins.
    Honey, you are preaching to the choir with the rest of your post. Those with common sense will find it pretty spot on, but you've apparently been lucky enough to miss the above by spending all your time on the racing forum. This attitude is quite prevalent among a number of Holsteiner breeders on here.

    In fact, before I even opened this thread, I was thinking "I wonder who will jump in and scream 'Holsteiner' first?" and whatdayaknow, it didn't even take that long



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    DRVMB1ggl3 - Great Post. As someone who started off breeding for eventers I have to repeat the question above. Who is going to buy and at what price. The cost of breeding is way to high to not have enough buyers on the other end willing to pay. It is one of the reasons I gave up and chose to breed just for jumpers. It seems to be a pride thing in eventing to have found the diamond in the ruff, essentially having saved them from doom. Although I believe you can breed for the sport, I would only suggest it if you were doing it for your own horses. Most want them already performing novice or better before they start paying any descent money. It is a loosing business model and I would caution anyone before they start. Until the eventing world is willing to pay good money for prospects like they do in dressage and jumping, they will have to continue purchasing them from failed efforts in other disciplines.

    Tim
    Agreed. But that will hopefully change when the racing industry finally manages to turn them all into downhill, spindly legged little things.

    Right now there are still a few out there, but eventually, eventers are just going to have to start looking somewhere else.



  6. #26
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    I think Drumbiggle has got the wrong end of the stick here. This post was in response to people here and elsewhere talking about breeding their warmblood mare to a warmblood stallion "to get an eventer" when the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of top eventers are still 75% TB so putting two warmbloods together stands no chance at all of producing a future 4**** event horse unless the warmbloods in question already carry a high % of TB and even then that route has rarely produced a horse capable of doing any of the major events.

    I'm not discounting the splash of other blood that is also carried by most good event horses but you can't overlook the reliably high % of TB that is the main part of their make up. People keep saying it will change, that the warmbloods will take over. So far that is not the case and the recent Rolex result had a higher than usual 100% TB rate in the top 10 finishers. At the moment the most reliable recipe to breed an event horse is to take a 50% TB mare and put her to a TB sire. Or vice versa if you can find a sire like Jumbo or Cruising. Putting warmblood with little or no TB in them to another warmblood with little or no TB in them will not make an eventer that will get past the lower levels.



  7. #27
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    Yes, Elizabeth, I'm so in agreement with you, especially regarding the lack of audience and potential buyers at the FEH and YEH events. I also start all of my youngsters myself but move them to other young horse developers ASAP. My own experience with eventing horses of many breeds is that if they latch on to and love x-country, they'll put their hearts into eventing and go further in it than their breeding and apparent talents would lead one to think possible. My Impressive Teddy was USCTA Paint Horse of the Year for two years (John Williams on board) so within the breed and not as meaningful as being Area I Preliminary Championships Res Ch or second at Groton House, AHSA Training Level Ch Zone 3, or second nationally in Novice early in his career one year (with me). The horse did it well because he learned to love it. He had a good infusion of TB in his pedigree far back. BUT it was only when he reached preliminary level that offers to buy him began to come in. I too breed "all-arounders" in our small Hanoverian program but the economics of it leads us to market them as dressage or show hunter/jumper prospects.
    ______________________
    "laurelleafhanoverians.com"



  8. #28
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    Nov. 24, 2007
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    so putting two warmbloods together stands no chance at all of producing a future 4**** event horse unless the warmbloods in question already carry a high % of TB and even then that route has rarely produced a horse capable of doing any of the major events.

    the format changes will prove that wrong in due course I'm afraid, I think it was why the changes were made to happen. Personally I would never breed to a stallion who wasn't either a minimum of 65% tb or Trakehner.

    In reality you also have to look at the market. How many horses and riders do actually know who compete at 4*? Compared to 1 and 2* it'll be a fraction, thus again you ask the question "do I breed for the top of the sport or up to 2*?".

    Most pro riders could take a labrador round a 2*, thus 99 times out of 100 just about any warmblood will make it round a 2*. The best that you can do is use a great moving scopey WB with some tb in the background on a tb mare who has at least shown she can event to a decent level. With a good rider it'll go 2*, and anything above that is pure profit.



  9. #29
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    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Ive done the FEH and YEH classes and don't find they really promote anything. I get more pride out of doing it with my babies than getting any benefits besides accomplishment and a nice schooling for the youngsters. There are no spectators and no real interest besides the people competing. - even the Championships

    As far as pricing, I see Novice horses going for 10-15k
    WOW Didi and DH. No one comes to the YES classes except those participating? Really?? I was going to take a youngster I have going to a YEH coming up soon. Looks like why bother? Why support a program that doesn't seem to support breeders??? I though that was their goal.

    I have a young mare who is going Novice right now who seems to be a phenomenal jumper in SJ, is very easy to get and keep fit and comes in galloping strong in the XC, who just needs a little more exposure to some of the XC jumps, and is coming along very nicely in dressage and the most I could get for her is $10,000 - $15,000 - maybe??? That's just nuts. I have more than that into her now. I think I'm going to keep giving her experience and look at Pony Jumpers for her. Last year she measured 14.1 3/8s for a temporary card. Don't know yet if she'll go over pony height or not. Really nice little ISR Sport Pony mare who got 8.3 for movement at her foal inspection.

    Anyone have experience with Pony Jumpers for sales and prices?? I hear mixed reports about how popular it is in different regions. Don't know enough about it.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  10. #30
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    Feb. 4, 2003
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    Oxford, MD USA
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    Tiki,
    I have never seen spectators at a FEH class -now i"ve not been to the Chps but I
    ve been to 4 different FEH classes in Area II and no spectators. As far as the YEH - I've been to 2 Champ and very few spectators ( of course, 2009 was in the pouring rain and 40 out, so understandably) but I don't think it is a selling showcase -
    The USEA is trying to support breeders - it is the breeders themselves and the fact that eventers don't buy 1, 2or 3 yr olds that make few spectators..
    And it is nuts that that is the price you would get -maybe a horse with a BNT who oozes talent would cost more, but you still have to find a rider who will ride a greenie xc - and that is getting harder and harder to find



  11. #31
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    Jan. 17, 2010
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    The one nice thing about the YEH division is that some upper level eventers who have an active sales program are usually there with YEH entrants so can see what the breeders and other young horse trainers have. This could result in a sale. Other than Doug Payne, acting as handler, I didn't see many or really any upper level eventers at the FEH Championships East at Lexington last year. It was mostly us breeders with a few eventers casually moving through, although I might have missed some other kind of action there that resulted in a sale. I do like the FEH and YEH programs but agree that most active eventers like to bring "project horses" along that probably didn't cost them what it costs us to raise them to an age to be interesting. i do know, in the past and in a better economy, that promising eventing horses at at least novice level can sell for up to $30K through the barns of those upper level riders/trainers that have active sales programs. And I think the horse market is improving...........hopefully!



  12. #32
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    Must add a bit more: The fact that eventers tend to develop their youngsters themselves and do go, in the main, for less expensive "project horses" including OTTB's, is a tribute to their horsemanship, whether they develop the horse as the trainer or under the eye of a good trainer or by attending clinics. All eventers know that they are what they are held to be; very good all-around horsemen, especially PCers from C level on. To be able to redevelop throw-away rejects from other disciplines and give them a useful career is super, in my mind. And I totally agree that for the 3* long format up a whopping big dose of TB, however it is blended in or at whatever generations, is required. I think a lot of sporthorse breeders breed for jumping ability, good minds, super movement, and hardy constitutions. I certainly try to do that. If I were breeding exclusively for the eventing market, I'd work even more TB blood into the mix.



  13. #33
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    Oct. 28, 2007
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by stolensilver View Post
    I thought people might be interested in this series of articles about the importance of TBs in modern sports horses, especially eventers. The warmblood studbooks are starting to claim that their warmbloods are now competing successfully at the top levels of eventing and some breeders are starting to increase the amount of warmblood genes in foals aimed at eventing. But if you examine the pedigrees of all of the 4**** horses you will find that almost all of them are 75%+ TB with a very small number who are Trakehner. Its interesting reading and I thought it was worth sharing.

    http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blo...odd-can-be-led
    If you look at the actual pedigrees of the warmbloods you refer to--those successfully competing in Europe as eventers--you will see that they do have a very high percentage of TB in their pedigrees, and also are strong TB types themselves.



  14. #34
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    Jul. 5, 2002
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    Interesting discussion as our Dutch stallion Navarone (Jus de Pomme x Armstrong) is being used a lot for eventing breeding right now. He is 60.94% TB/anglo arab. His son Zalig MG (Navarone x Accord II x Ahorn) qualfiied for the young eventer championships last year. 49.22% TB/anglo arab. His son Thunder III (Navarone x Gershwin) has been winning CCI*** internationally. He is 56.07% TB/Anglo Arab.

    We've found Navarone goes very well with the TBs, but also the warmblood mares. He has competed to Grand Prix Dressage and 4'6" jumping and now going back into jumping. Not that many warmbloods are that multitalented, and breeding is usually for one discipline so probably why they don't produce eventers that often.

    Kathy
    Majestic Gaits-Dutch Warmbloods,#1 USEF Dressage Sporthorse Breeder. #1 KWPN-NA Jumpers.Standing Navarone,Schroeder,Dante MG.VDL Frozen. Approval KWPN Han OLD RPSI BWP Canadian SWANA sBs SF Holst



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