[stolensilver]

I thought people might be interested in this series of articles about the importance of TBs in modern sports horses, especially eventers. The warmblood studbooks are starting to claim that their warmbloods are now competing successfully at the top levels of eventing and some breeders are starting to increase the amount of warmblood genes in foals aimed at eventing. But if you examine the pedigrees of all of the 4**** horses you will find that almost all of them are 75%+ TB with a very small number who are Trakehner. Its interesting reading and I thought it was worth sharing.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blo...odd-can-be-led

[carolprudm]

I'm thinking of breeding my Erin Go Bragh ( http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inde...mall_font=1&l= is Lotty's full sister) mare to
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/manu+fortis+sea+hawk

More than 1/2 TB and the rest IRISH!

She as bred last July 22 so I'm not going to breed her this year unless she foals early

[stolensilver]

You've got a fabulous mare there carolprudm. Stallion has very nice bloodlines too, I love Seacrest. (no pic with the pedigree so can't comment on how he looks)

My only reservation would be that you've got quite a lot of chunky genes in there, the Irish Draught and the Connemara. Personally I'd put your mare to a full TB. Most top eventers are 75% TB or more. By using a full TB you're lessening the risk of getting an overtopped horse (big body on small legs) which is always a consideration when mixing different genetics. The gene pool in the TBs is small and so the outcome is more predictable. My prediction if you put your mare to a half bred stallion is that you'll get a well built middleweight who may not have the speed needed for top class eventing. But then I don't know what you are aiming to produce, you may be wanting to produce a horse with more substance. Whichever stallion you choose I would expect your mare to throw a very classy foal.

[carolprudm]

LOL, I do like substance and Lotty is no lightweight. She's in foal to Bridon Belfrey RID. I'm hoping for a filly that I can get graded as AID.

I had been thinking of breeding her to Touch of the Blues as this is his last year at stud with the same goal in mind but I saw this guy's pedigree and thought "Oh WOW, what an eventer!"

However if she carries for 373 days as she did the last time I won't breed her this year at all

[Fred]

I thought people might be interested in this series of articles about the importance of TBs in modern sports horses, especially eventers. The warmblood studbooks are starting to claim that their warmbloods are now competing successfully at the top levels of eventing and some breeders are starting to increase the amount of warmblood genes in foals aimed at eventing. But if you examine the pedigrees of all of the 4**** horses you will find that almost all of them are 75%+ TB with a very small number who are Trakehner. Its interesting reading and I thought it was worth sharing.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blo...odd-can-be-led

Thank you stolensilver for reposting the link to this series.
I thought it was excellent, very well-written, and of course I agree strongly with William Micklem on the importance of Thoroughbreds as sport horses, and the importance of Thoroughbred blood in breeding sport horses.

I was also very touched and honoured to see A Fine Romance included in the list of influential TB stallions for eventing.

[not again]

Love love love the tb influence!
Here are a couple of my homebreds who are currently eventing at Training level:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=avebury+wf&x=27&y=5
XX/OX percentage : 58.58%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=A...h+Wf&x=26&y=11
XX/OX percentage : 72.85%

We have been very careful to complement our good American thoroughbreds with performance oriented multi-purpose warmblood stallions to create a true American warmblood.

[mistyjewell]

I'm trying some out of the box (ish) breeding for my own personal eventer (so don't think I'll ever do a 1* let alone a 4*, lol) but I'm taking my TB mare that stayed sound racing until she was 10 (110 starts, placed in over 50%of them) to Redwine, that's 1/4 angelo-arab. Hoping I'll get something *lightly* more heavy boned then my mare, keeping the jump, but improving her movement a little. I know you don't have to have dressage FEI level movement to win in eventing, but I think the dressage aspect is really impt as lots of horses are finishing on their dressage scores these days.

so basically hoping my mare will bring her speed/soundness to the equations (she's also a good jumper/mover, approved in 2 WB registries) and He'll help with temperment (since I'm an ammy rider) keep the jump, and improve movement and bone.

I'll let you know next friday if she took then next year how it looks like it worked out, lol.

[holsteinersrock]

Cavalier Royale that had no less than two horses in the 2010 Rolex and has been world leading eventing sire (I don't know which years in total he topped the international statistics but he did) is a warmblood and a Holsteiner.

OK, he was bred to Irish Thoroughbred mares, probably of the steeplechase type, so perhaps that's the formula to his success as THE eventing sire.

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/St...cavalier_.html will show you how much Thoroughbred he had in his blood (shown in red).

Anna

[stolensilver]

Cavalier is just over 50% TB
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=19062
so by putting him to a TB mare you get an eventer who is 75% TB. Occasionally a top eventer appears who is only 50% TB (a scattering of Badminton winners have been ID x TB) but most have a higher amount of TB in them. Its amazing how consistent this is over so many years and despite the rules being changed.

[carolprudm]

Cavalier Royale that had no less than two horses in the 2010 Rolex and has been world leading eventing sire (I don't know which years in total he topped the international statistics but he did) is a warmblood and a Holsteiner.

OK, he was bred to Irish Thoroughbred mares, probably of the steeplechase type, so perhaps that's the formula to his success as THE eventing sire.

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/St...cavalier_.html will show you how much Thoroughbred he had in his blood (shown in red).

Anna

He is currently sixth according to the wbfsh
Eventing Sire Ranking


1 HERALDIK XX 993
2 JUMBO 730
3 MASTER IMP 712
4 CRUISING 582
5 STAN THE MAN XX 575
6 CAVALIER ROYALE 539


Jumbo and Cruising are Irish Draught x TB. Cruising also appears on the list as a jumping sire, in 30th place

[stolensilver]

Considering that the eventing rankings are full of holes because of the number of top eventers that are registered as being of unknown breeding its interesting that the top 6 stallions are
1. Heraldik full TB
2. Jumbo who is probably 50% TB (x ID)
3. Master Imp full TB
4. Cruising who is probably 50% TB (x ID)
5. Stan the Man full TB
6. Cavalier Holsteiner 50% TB

I wouldn't be at all surprised that if the UK and Ireland were better at keeping records of their competition geldings the top stallions would be even more dominated by jump bred TBs and ID x TBs.

[vineyridge]

Heraldik, Stan The Man, and Master Imp were all full TBs. Heraldik is probably on the list because the great German breeder of eventers, Friedrich Butt used him for Butts Leon and Butts Abraxxas and several others. Stan The Man got sent to Germany and sired Sam, Michael Jung's stellar event horse, along with his two Olympic brothers ridden by Leslie Law. Master Imp has many, many world class event horses to his credit. I would venture to say that Cavalier Royale and Master Imp are on the list for many currently competing horses, while Heraldik and Stan The Man gained their points from far fewer.

Just checked Heraldik, and he has got oodles of German event horses who are competing mostly at the 1 and 2* levels. However, Happy Times is a son of his who came 3rd at both Badminton and Burghley last year. There are a couple of 3* horses also. One thing that I've noticed is that most German/central European Events seem to be CICs, as opposed to CCIs. Another thing I've noticed is that he has a few descendants in show jumping and dressage. One son, a Holsteiner bred stallion, was in the World Cup dressage final, riding for Poland. He's also damsire of a couple of dressage horses, including the stallion Alassio's Boy. He's also got an international level jumper son (Hoyo de Monterey ex Heraldicus) who is a stallion and is ridden by a Swede. The latter is apparently licensed as a Holsteiner sire.

[Foxtrot's]

H E L L O - Viney!

[stoicfish]

Cavalier is just over 50% TB
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=19062
so by putting him to a TB mare you get an eventer who is 75% TB. Occasionally a top eventer appears who is only 50% TB (a scattering of Badminton winners have been ID x TB) but most have a higher amount of TB in them. Its amazing how consistent this is over so many years and despite the rules being changed.

I really do not find that to be a very useful number as most WB's are Tb crosses and therefore show a high percentage. The way it is calculated is the % of animals in the horses total pedigree. But genetically it can, (and probably will) have much less, since some of these horses are 4 and 5 gens back.

http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=463245
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1061
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=443
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=127
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=13035
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=282
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1109
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1937
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=1074
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=31

Not that Tb's should not get credit for their eventing success and over all contribution. Just don't think you can call Cavalier a 1/2 tb, unless you are going to give that designation to many Wb's.

[Coppers mom]

If his genetics are 50% TB, then he is indeed half TB. That blood, whether you like it or not, helped shape the horse. And in the case of Cavalier Royale, his grand sire was a TB. It's not like that's so far back it's not going to matter anymore.

But that would go against all that the Holsteiner cult teaches, wouldn't it?

[stoicfish]

I'm not a Holsteiner breeder.
Well, I will agree that Tb's were a major contributor in shaping Wb's.

The statement was made by StolenS in reation to a comment that a WB was a successful eventing sire, and the reply that he is really 50% Tb. And my point was he is a typical Wb and not special in his Tb make up. As my list points out, many Wb's are around 50% in their linage make up.

But to be technical. Having 50% of your heritage Tb, does not make you carry 50% Tb genetics. I realize that sounds counter intuitive but it is true. Genes are not passed down consistently but randomly. In other words one of your great Grand parents may have had practically no genetic contribution to you or a significant contribution. The contribution determined randomly during meiosis and the resulting formation of the gametes.

He is possible 25% but more likely less due to that grand parent.

[Coppers mom]

It was a comment to the idea held by some on this board that Holsteiners are the end all and be all, and that the Holsteiner is wonderful despite the TB

[Drvmb1ggl3]

It was a comment to the idea held by some on this board that Holsteiners are the end all and be all, and that the Holsteiner is wonderful despite the TB

I doubt there is one serious Holsteiner breeder, or any WB or sport horse breeder for that matter, that would say that the modern sporthorse is wonderful "despite" the TB blood that courses through it's veins.
The modern sporthorse is defined by a horse that is refined with a high proportion of TB blood. It got where it is today through the careful and studied injection of TB blood to the various studbooks. That is readily acknowledged by one and all.
However, what some people have a hard time comprehending is that a sporthorse with a high percentage of TB blood is not the same thing as a full TB, and esp not the same thing as an OTTB.

The idea that a high % TB blood is important in eventers is hardly new and groundbreaking, as the starting of a thread such as this would seem to suggest. The best eventers are, and have been for the last 50 years, highly blood horses. However, and once again this is the piece that many people seem to miss by a country mile, an awful lot of them, were, and increasingly are, not full TBs. The 75% to 90% TB blood no doubt contributes to their success... but so does the other 25% to 10%. When you see threads like this, it's as if people want you to believe that the best eventers are successful "despite" the part of their genetic makeup that is not TB. It wasn't just the TB sire that produced the goods, it was also the halfbred mares he was put to. It's almost as if some people see that a succesful horse is 3/4s TB and extrapolate from that that he would be even better if he was 100% TB. That's erroneous thinking.

The most successful breed of eventing horse over the last half century has been the Irish Sport Horse. What makes this animal an eventing machine is the mix of blood that goes into it's genetic make up, which was traditionally a lot of TB with a nice dash of ID, and nowadays an increasing element of WB blood. If it were only the TB portion of their genetic makeup that made these horses successful, then the Irish breeders would just have gone with straight TBs and not bothered crossing on half bred mares. I mean, for goddsakes, it's not like there are a shortage of TBs in Ireland. In fact, as one of the world's foremost producers of TBs, and historically the leading producer of National Hunt TBs (i.e TBs bred to run 2-4 miles AND jump, so just the kind of TB you would need for eventing), full TBs probably make up a higher percentage of the general horse population in Ireland than any other country in the world, outside of possibly Australia.

It seems there is a certain subset of people on these boards that have an impassioned attachment to the TB as a breed. That's cool beans. As someone who posts 95% of the time on the racing board of COTH, I'm more than a bit partial to TBs myself. However to let that passion cloud your logic is not a good thing.

Breed bias is such a silly thing in breeding sporthorses. It's almost as bad as krazy kolor breeding. The best horse is always the horse that gets the job done. Actually a prime example of this is the aforementioned Cavalier Royale. There was a good deal of breed bias and resentment from certain quarters in Ireland when he and other contintenal sires were first introduced back in the day. He was "foreign". He was not the traditional TB over ID formula. But looking back now at his phenomenal success you have to tip the hat to the cajones it took to go against the grain. Granted, as was the case with most of the early use of WB sires in Ireland, the original purpose was to primarily produce showjumpers. But you don't knock a winning formula, inadvertent as it may be.

[tom]

Cavalier Royale that had no less than two horses in the 2010 Rolex and has been world leading eventing sire (I don't know which years in total he topped the international statistics but he did) is a warmblood and a Holsteiner.

OK, he was bred to Irish Thoroughbred mares, probably of the steeplechase type, so perhaps that's the formula to his success as THE eventing sire.

http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/St...cavalier_.html will show you how much Thoroughbred he had in his blood (shown in red).

Anna

Anna, in the ISH studbook, year in and year out, only 3% - 5% of the foals are out of TB mares. This same percentage holds for foals sired by "foreign" (to use the ISH studbook's term) stallions: only 3% - 5% are out of TB mares.

There is nothing to suggest that Cavalier received a higher percentage of TB mares than one would expect by random. In fact my impression is that many of his best eventing progeny are out of half-bred mares (TB x ISH mare).

What we do know is that the Hughes family, and their network, gave a lot of very good mares to Cavalier.

Regarding the debate about TB blood, I echo the sentiments that no serious breeder doubts the contributions TBs have made to warmblood breeding. http://www.paardenfokken.nl/ uses 9 generations to compute the percentage of TB and arab blood. Nine generations! It is a bit silly. For me I like to see one or more very good TB stallions or mares in the first four generations. After that the contribution is minimal and the blood qualities we seek are usually too diluted. We are fooling ourselves if we think otherwise.

[FMulder]

"The most successful breed of eventing horse over the last half century has been the Irish Sport Horse."

Those days are starting to be over, but that's not tosay that won't come back. Historically these eventers have been failed jumpers, which is how many of the french eventers have been created. I think you'll see a golden age of event breeding in the UK for the next two decades, as the use their proven event mares who carry a lot of blood, with stallions that either have exactly the right genes for eventing (Jaguar Mail and Royaldik) or have proven themselves in the sport AND have the right blood such as Mighty Magic and Grafenstolz. With mare base in the US not being too dissimilar to that of the
UK, there's no reason why the US can't be a selling country for eventers in ten years time.