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  1. #1
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    Mar. 31, 2010
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    Default Pure biotin?

    Can anyone suggest an affordable source of pure biotin? All of the supplements I've been looking at have loads of other things thrown into them... I'm looking to add 25-50 mg/day to my OTTB mare's diet to help her stereotypical TB feet perk up a bit.

    Thanks for any suggestions!



  2. #2
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    Default

    We swear by this stuff, Gatco GelBio. Have used it for years, have seen the difference it makes in our own horses' hooves. Other boarders use it on their horses as well, and we've all seen the difference. It does not have anything else in it, not vitamin B, etc., just Gelatin plus biotin. No side effects.

    Gatco Gelatin + Biotin. It has really and truly worked, and I am quite a skeptic when it comes to any type of supplement.

    Here's a link: http://www.gelatininnovations.com/pa...in_biotin.html

    The people there are super nice, order is mailed out that same day and we usually receive it in just 2 days.
    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    We have no intentions of tarring and feathering anyone: this is now a thread about dipping Ryan Reynolds in chocolate.



  3. #3
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    Something to chew on - it's much more likely a horse is deficient in methionine than biotin.

    There's a reason hoof supplements include things like methionine in their formula - biotin can't work without it.

    Horses are generally really good at making their own biotin.

    Also, hoof health isn't just or only about biotin. It takes enough quality proteins (ie methionine, but also lysine and others), to get the job done. What is the horse's whole diet? It may be as simple as adding Uckele's Tri-Amino which includes lysine and methionine.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  4. #4
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    Mar. 9, 2001
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    A "pure" biotin supplement might not do much good.

    It's been found that methionine and zinc are also key compoments along with bioton for hoof quality, and are usually found in most hoof supplement.

    Handy chart to compare amounts/prices:

    http://www.smartpakequine.com/charts/HoofCompare.html



  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Something to chew on - it's much more likely a horse is deficient in methionine than biotin.

    There's a reason hoof supplements include things like methionine in their formula - biotin can't work without it.

    Horses are generally really good at making their own biotin.

    Also, hoof health isn't just or only about biotin. It takes enough quality proteins (ie methionine, but also lysine and others), to get the job done. What is the horse's whole diet? It may be as simple as adding Uckele's Tri-Amino which includes lysine and methionine.
    Sorry, I should have been more specific in my original post.

    My mare's diet consists of (split between two meals):
    2 lbs alfalfa pellets
    1 lb rice bran
    1 cup flax seed
    2 handfuls of oats
    Vit/Min supp
    15,000 mg MSM
    1/2 cup raspberry leaves
    1 scoop Tri-Aminos (I think the scoop holds 20 grams?)

    She is also out on pasture, and gets a good amount of grass hay morning and night. So, she has the amino acids and vitamin/minerals covered, which is why I'm looking for pure biotin.



  6. #6
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    Dec. 16, 2003
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    Staunton, VA, USA
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    Default Biotin is easy enough to get

    Quote Originally Posted by BrightandClear View Post
    Sorry, I should have been more specific in my original post.

    My mare's diet consists of (split between two meals):
    2 lbs alfalfa pellets
    1 lb rice bran
    1 cup flax seed
    2 handfuls of oats
    Vit/Min supp
    15,000 mg MSM
    1/2 cup raspberry leaves
    1 scoop Tri-Aminos (I think the scoop holds 20 grams?)

    She is also out on pasture, and gets a good amount of grass hay morning and night. So, she has the amino acids and vitamin/minerals covered, which is why I'm looking for pure biotin.
    if you call Foxden Equine we can supply you with some since we use it in several mixes.

    However it might well not be enough on it's own. but give it a try and if it does not do enough, then get back to me for some other suggestions.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melyni View Post
    if you call Foxden Equine we can supply you with some since we use it in several mixes.

    However it might well not be enough on it's own. but give it a try and if it does not do enough, then get back to me for some other suggestions.
    MW
    How long would you suggest for assessing just the biotin? My farrier said it could take many months to see an improvement.



  8. #8
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    tri-Amino is 10gm lysine, 5 methionine, and 2 threonine, for a total of 17gm of "stuff" per scoop

    Have you tried a probiotic for a while? Even though horses are generally very well equipped to make their own biotin, if the digestive system isn't fully functional, it can mean they don't make enough. Adding more doesn't fix the underlying problem, though the symptoms can certainly go away. But then you're stuck feeding the biotin. Ulcers can do the same thing, as they can be a cause of ineffective digestion (think of all the thin horses who can't gain weight no matter how much food they eat).

    I'm just trying to help you try to figure out if there is an underlying issue so that you don't end up relying on this and that supplement, forever, to get the job done
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrightandClear View Post
    How long would you suggest for assessing just the biotin? My farrier said it could take many months to see an improvement.
    You'd have to wait a few months to see enough new growth at the coronet band to begin to judge the quality. Even then, it may take 6-9 months for that new horn to reach the ground, or close enough, to see what its quality really is.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  10. #10
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    Mar. 31, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    tri-Amino is 10gm lysine, 5 methionine, and 2 threonine, for a total of 17gm of "stuff" per scoop

    Have you tried a probiotic for a while? Even though horses are generally very well equipped to make their own biotin, if the digestive system isn't fully functional, it can mean they don't make enough. Adding more doesn't fix the underlying problem, though the symptoms can certainly go away. But then you're stuck feeding the biotin. Ulcers can do the same thing, as they can be a cause of ineffective digestion (think of all the thin horses who can't gain weight no matter how much food they eat).

    I'm just trying to help you try to figure out if there is an underlying issue so that you don't end up relying on this and that supplement, forever, to get the job done
    And I certainly appreciate the help!

    I have not tried a probiotic. To be honest, they intimidate me. I have no idea what to look for in one/how to separate the good from the bad. It's been on the list to research for a while now, but I just haven't gotten to it.

    Weird thing with the Tri-Amino. I just had two new jars delivered and on the label it lists the scoop as 20 grams, and then gives the amino acids values you listed above, which add up to 17 grams... Not that it really matters, but I thought it was odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    You'd have to wait a few months to see enough new growth at the coronet band to begin to judge the quality. Even then, it may take 6-9 months for that new horn to reach the ground, or close enough, to see what its quality really is.
    That's what the farrier said. I hate waiting.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrightandClear View Post
    I have not tried a probiotic. To be honest, they intimidate me. I have no idea what to look for in one/how to separate the good from the bad. It's been on the list to research for a while now, but I just haven't gotten to it.
    FastTrack and Probios are 2 that are probably relatively readily available locally. It's hard, actually, do go really wrong with a probiotic. Do you know which ones are available in your local stores?

    Weird thing with the Tri-Amino. I just had two new jars delivered and on the label it lists the scoop as 20 grams, and then gives the amino acids values you listed above, which add up to 17 grams... Not that it really matters, but I thought it was odd.
    Odd indeed - I'll have to check my containers. I know the website says a 2lb container is 53 scoops, which works out to 17gm/scoop.

    That's what the farrier said. I hate waiting.
    LOL, yeah, when it comes to the feet, nothing is ever very instant.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  12. #12
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    Default Your farrier is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrightandClear View Post
    How long would you suggest for assessing just the biotin? My farrier said it could take many months to see an improvement.
    The hoof grows down from the coronary band, and it takes on average 6 months for the horn to grow from the top of the hoof to the toe, less at the heels.
    So if the biotin is working you should see stronger, thicker, better horn begin to appear at the top of the hoof in about 4 weeks and slowly grow down as the hoof grows.

    Basically rings of thicker stronger horn appear at the top and grow down. After about 4-6 months they are all the way to the bottom.

    So allow 6-8 weeks of supplementation before you decide whether or not it is working.

    Yours
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrightandClear View Post
    Weird thing with the Tri-Amino. I just had two new jars delivered and on the label it lists the scoop as 20 grams, and then gives the amino acids values you listed above, which add up to 17 grams... Not that it really matters, but I thought it was odd.
    The balance is probably something to keep it a loose powder. Amino-acids are often fiercely hydroscopic and absorb water from the air. If you don't keep a dessicant in them they turn to a solid block very quickly.
    MW
    Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
    Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
    New edition of book is out:
    Horse Nutrition Handbook.

    www.knabstruppers4usa.com



  14. #14
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    Mar. 31, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    FastTrack and Probios are 2 that are probably relatively readily available locally. It's hard, actually, do go really wrong with a probiotic. Do you know which ones are available in your local stores?
    I've seen both of the above. The feed store also carries the Doctor's Choice line of supplements, including their probiotic.
    http://www.equishine.com/horse-suppl...supplement.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    yeah, when it comes to the feet, nothing is ever very instant.
    Except nailing shoes on, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melyni View Post
    The balance is probably something to keep it a loose powder. Amino-acids are often fiercely hydroscopic and absorb water from the air. If you don't keep a dessicant in them they turn to a solid block very quickly.
    MW
    Well, that makes sense. Thanks for the insight.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melyni View Post
    The balance is probably something to keep it a loose powder. Amino-acids are often fiercely hydroscopic and absorb water from the air. If you don't keep a dessicant in them they turn to a solid block very quickly.
    MW
    Except that, 2lb x 454gm / 53 scoops is 17gm (and slight change)
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Except that, 2lb x 454gm / 53 scoops is 17gm (and slight change)
    Just to make it even more confusing, when I ordered the tri-aminos, their catalogue listed the jars as a 45 day supply. However, I believe the jars themselves say 53 days.



  17. #17
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    LMAO!! I give, I give! The online catalog still says 53 scoops - were you looking at a hard copy?
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  18. #18
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    Keratex Hoof Hardener works quickly to improve hoof strength by crosslinking the proteins that make up the hoof wall. You should see noticeable improvement in 4 weeks or less if applied daily. For sole thickening go with Durasole.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    LMAO!! I give, I give! The online catalog still says 53 scoops - were you looking at a hard copy?
    Yep, it was hard copy. I ordered from the Uckele booth at the Midwest Horse Fair. I notice the discrepancy at the time, as I'd already looked at the product online, but figured I was just remembering wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by rcloisonne View Post
    Keratex Hoof Hardener works quickly to improve hoof strength by crosslinking the proteins that make up the hoof wall. You should see noticeable improvement in 4 weeks or less if applied daily. For sole thickening go with Durasole.
    Can you use both? She needs more sole, and stronger walls (too much chipping). I use a typical hoof conditioner a couple times a week to deal with moisture balance, which has helped with the cracking, but she still needs to grow stronger, more plentiful hoof.



  20. #20
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    Yes, you can use the Keratex hoof hardener on the outside, and the Durasole on the sole (and frog if necessary)
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



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