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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    Too bad he has that typical reiner straight shoulder.

    ...errr...
    And is so rump high too, oh, my.

    No, he is not one of my favorites, because I think that too much white and pink noses predisposes horses to sunburn and blue eyes are more light sensitive.
    He does at least has dark pigment around his eyes.

    That may not matter in other parts of the country, but where we are, paint breeders have trouble with some of those horses, the sun and dust causes them much more discomfort, when colored faced horses don't even notice the weather.
    There is a reason ranches in the West preferred their horses be of mostly a solid color, with little white in the face, when horses had to live and work most of their lives outside.
    It was sad when a 10 or 12 year old apron faced horse died from cancers around the eyes, that could not be treated in those days.
    I hope they do pay attention who they breed him to, to avoid offspring with little pigment.



  2. #82
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    Here's the mystery question the skirmish about down-hill athletes raises for me: The idea behind wanting the up hill horse with "international level" (dressage) gaits vs. the shuffling of the dissed reiner was always about biomechanics and inherent athleticism.

    That is to say, the horse ought to be build such-and-such way so that he can actually do the clean, straight changes or collection we ask.

    So when the downhill POS nevertheless does all this, where does that leave our philosophizing?

    I ask because I ride an aging WB who has lost so much of his top line and butt that you'd think he couldn't do the stuff he does. I see the same thing in some (English) Eq horses. My gelding explained it to me: "I only need enough muscle to cart my big, all important gut to the next patch of grass. Oh yeah, and every once in a while I'll have to ward off or escape a coyote."

    No, you don't want to breed or buy the horse who will never have the skeleton and muscle mass to do impressive tricks. But these lank, nerdy looking animals who pull athletic "miracles" out of their a$$es suggest that there's more to it than ideal conformation. I suspect that correct riding and management (plus a pliable mind willing to go along with all that) make up a huge part of the equation.

    In other words, maybe it biomechanically takes a whole lot less than the body-builder look to get the job done.
    The armchair saddler
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Here's the mystery question the skirmish about down-hill athletes raises for me: The idea behind wanting the up hill horse with "international level" (dressage) gaits vs. the shuffling of the dissed reiner was always about biomechanics and inherent athleticism.

    That is to say, the horse ought to be build such-and-such way so that he can actually do the clean, straight changes or collection we ask.

    So when the downhill POS nevertheless does all this, where does that leave our philosophizing?

    I ask because I ride an aging WB who has lost so much of his top line and butt that you'd think he couldn't do the stuff he does. I see the same thing in some (English) Eq horses. My gelding explained it to me: "I only need enough muscle to cart my big, all important gut to the next patch of grass. Oh yeah, and every once in a while I'll have to ward off or escape a coyote."

    No, you don't want to breed or buy the horse who will never have the skeleton and muscle mass to do impressive tricks. But these lank, nerdy looking animals who pull athletic "miracles" out of their a$$es suggest that there's more to it than ideal conformation. I suspect that correct riding and management (plus a pliable mind willing to go along with all that) make up a huge part of the equation.

    In other words, maybe it biomechanically takes a whole lot less than the body-builder look to get the job done.
    I never had to wonder about that, growing up with a mix of mutt horses of all kinds, that would do what you needed done or you looked for another job for them.
    Fancy, bred for the task horses were few and far between, some top racing stables, breeders of some types of horses, etc.

    I learned early that, if it could jump, it was a jumper.
    One of our best jumpers was a belgian, that was our regional jumper champion for four years in a row, in his mid teens then.

    If it can do whatever you want, then everything else is moot question.

    Now, today we bred for the task in large enough numbers that yes, a horse bred for something will definitely have a better chance of being good for that, more than the run of the mill, haphazardly bred horse.

    If you ever start many colts for reining, cutting, racing, you will find that most are ok, but there is one that really takes your breath away, is so clearly more talented, from the first time you start them, as to leave the rest in the dirt.

    Now, that horse may have some serious conformation or mental fault that may keep it from going to the top when properly trained, but at that start, you can already wonder how easy it is for some and not others.
    Those are the ones the breeders and trainers love to find.



  4. #84
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    In response to the question about if these horses stay sound into their teens...

    Western sports with 3 year old BIG MONEY futurities do tend to use up the horses a little earlier. Not saying that they are ALL used up, but at the highest level they get career ending injuries earlier than most dressage horses.

    Before you read any more please READ: I love reining. I love the sport, the horses and it is FUN. Every sport, in a broad overview, has predominant issues or trends.

    I am good friends with a quite prominent reining trainer's daughter. We often discuss the differences between the sports; and the lack of longevity in the reining horses is a predominant difference.

    They don't move horses up the levels like we do in dressage. At 3 or 4 the pro horses can do all the movements.

    In just a glance at the NRHA website... they are encouraging breeders to nominate foals for NRHA futurity and derby because there is 2.5 million in prize money to be won. The futurity is open to 3 year olds, and the derby to 4,5 and 6 year olds. So there is huge financial incentive to finish these horses YOUNG. Cutting horses are quite similar. When you do that, you risk shortening their competitively sound careers.

    Another successful reining trainer I know was telling me how excited she was to see the addition of reining to the FEI, for the SOLE reason that the age rules (I think the FEI reiners have to be either 5 or 6?) would encourage more trainers to think about the long term of the horse.

    So yeah, what they do is hard on them, but the structure of the sport is also encouraging horses to be started, finished and competed young and that contributes to their earlier retirements from competition.



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    Meh.


    Say what you want, but a talented horse can do the hardest reining pattern there is with 6 months of good training with the top trainers.
    HAHAAAAHAAAAAAA. LOL.

    Really? You realize that most of the "top" trainers don't even start asking for the hard stuff like spins, stops, and changes in the first 90 days, all they do is suppling, walk/trot/canter, circle work, leg yields,?
    Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
    Sam: A job? Does it pay?
    Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
    Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.



  6. #86
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    You need to put that in perspective.
    How many human athletes train and compete, how many make it to the top levels and how many, talented or not, don't get there because of many reasons, including injuries?

    That is the nature of reaching for the top in anything we do.
    There are so many that do go on to have long careers too.
    Life is about risks and going about it the best way you know to achieve your goals and minimize the risks.

    Would one more year or training and growth help any one individual horse?
    If so, that is what trainers are for, to see that and not push that horse.
    Too many do make it fine, my three that won futurities, one a rather large one and now in their mid teens are still competitive and sound and many out there like that show us that how many horses have a long, sound, competitive life is relative to many factors, not just their starting age.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grataan View Post
    HAHAAAAHAAAAAAA. LOL.

    Really? You realize that most of the "top" trainers don't even start asking for the hard stuff like spins, stops, and changes in the first 90 days, all they do is suppling, walk/trot/canter, circle work, leg yields,?
    Well yes, they er, have to get ON the horse first!

    But they DO ask for the rest of the work as early as
    2 years

    Nice stallion on the other page But the chex and Olena side of his breeding is as downhill as the day is long so I'd be interested to see his offspring and how "uphill' they are. He has a nice shoulder too, but he is straight legged at the canter, something the reiners are moving away from which is a nice change.

    He's nice, but not typical, I would say exceptional and all but I dont know a breeder breeding to him.



  8. #88
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    I would say the most important conformation aspect of a reiner is the rear half strength - from loin to tail. All maneuvers, including the spin, need skeletal (sp?) conformation strength and excellent muscleing in the loin and tie-down to the hocks, which gives power . That would be my first thing to consider, then I'd look for a level topline.

    'Uphill' horses mostly have a larger, more open shoulder, higher set neck, and prominant wither. This is nice for front leg stride. If that is combined with a very strong, well muscled rear, then you have that exceptional horse. But an uphill reiner without a great rear is not going to have the strength to be the winner, and is not going to be the horse you see these highly competative trainers riding in the videos posted.

    Another thought: An uphill horse with a flat, sweepy stride is very, very desirable in Western Pleasure if combined with the rear end strength to go slow. I did reining, but mostly ride Appx hunt seat/hunter horses and this is what I would want also.

    However, most of my friends are reiners, and they say the long, sweepy strided horse will look pretty doing the large circles, but will tend to get less plus points than the short strided horse that LOOKS like it is going much faster in the large circles and can do a tighter small circle.
    In reining, level is probably the better conformation.


    NOMIOMI1, most futurity trainers I know want a full two years on a horse so the training can progress slowly and include rest periods. A two year old just starting training is going to be way behind because you cannot do a crash program that will be competative at the big events.
    Last edited by Plumcreek; Apr. 25, 2010 at 02:59 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Ok, we *were* being facetious about the Chex horse's shoulder, right? Just checking.

    There are just a lot of stereotypes and some misinformation flying around.

    I sure as hell don't want to work all day on a downhill, straight shouldered horse. If that is what is truly winning in the show ring, then we're starting to see the same discrepancy in working western COMPETITION as we see in the WP world. (Which does seem to be slowly coming back around again... I hope... ) And, dare I say, between COMPETITION dressage and dressage training... (i.e. any horse can be made better, the movements are for helping the horse, etc.)

    I've used cutting/reining bred APHAs on my NSH mare, and those foals have come out as beautiful uphill horses with lovely gaits and suitable for many sport disciplines. The last, by This Guy won Bronze at his inspections and beat several WBs and WBx's (out of WB stallions du jour) and a nicely bred Irish Sporthorse. Granted, the dam was exceptional... but the uphill, roound, 'spanish type' paints are fabulous... dare I say "Baroque," and add the QH mind, heart and work ethic. I realize Ghost is turning his head in that photo and makes his neck look weird... but foal came out with a lovely neck, and To Die For round, lofty gaits.

    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/...ngthefence.jpg
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/...okingaway1.jpg
    http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/...6/Noahlook.jpg

    Oh, and obviously NO predisposition for dressage... Never too soon to start the ground work

    As to Anky... in a way it's like Tiger Woods (and I hate to use him for the analogy any more--forget recent crud) IF Tiger had chosen baseball, or soccer as his sport, he probably would've been just as much a superstar. Some people are just THAT much more athletic and that much more intuitive, and when you combine the two--it's someone who is extremely talented and seems 'natural.' I believe Anky is athletic enough that she could ride whatever discipline she decided she wanted to do, and be at top levels. Of COURSE her noteriety helps. Money does too.

    Whether or not I agree or disagree with her 'style' is moot.

    But I do think it's interesting that the halt actually *counts* in reining.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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  10. #90
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    "Just FYI, if Anky qualified for both sports, she would not be the only one, nor the first. Currently, Heath Ryan is qualified for both dressage and eventing at WEG. He has competed at both the **** level in eventing and Grand Prix dressage." I reckon if Heath took up reining, he'd be awesome at it...


    I think Anky is looking like she is having fun - and it is probably one area where Sjeff can't be totally opinionated! However I would think that sitting on a horse cantering like that would feel very odd coming from a dressage background (and she does look like she really gets a bit of collection and power happening before the slides...) but the small circles, with no bend, and 4 beat look like they would feel alien.

    As for the halts, the horse seems to always want to be stepping back - I would have thought he'd have to be immobile. He does stop at the end, and have the bit checked...and for those who think that Salinero (and Anky) wouldn't cope with this ... don't you realise that Salinero also has to have his bit checked at FEI events?



  11. #91
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    The step back IS penalized.

    The halt is STILL an issue, apparantly.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
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    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by pintopiaffe View Post
    The step back IS penalized.

    The halt is STILL an issue, apparantly.
    I could be wrong, but the reining trainer who let me swing my H/J and Dressage leg over one of her made horses explained that the slide comes from teaching the horse an aid for back up. The stop is the horse just trying to shift from 4th or 5th to Reverse. So the halt (Neutral) is a product of the rider's timing. The horses are taught to look for the "back up" request.

    Oh, and that moment in the halt (usually after the spin) where the guy pauses to adjust his hat? That's about giving the horse a moment to settle. Maybe it's also about helping man and beast recover from any dizzyness.
    The armchair saddler
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Oh, and that moment in the halt (usually after the spin) where the guy pauses to adjust his hat? That's about giving the horse a moment to settle. Maybe it's also about helping man and beast recover from any dizzyness.
    I believe the "settle" is actually judged, no? To demonstrate that the horse can perform athletic, forward (!) movement and still keep it's wits about it.
    "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equa View Post
    "Just FYI, if Anky qualified for both sports, she would not be the only one, nor the first. Currently, Heath Ryan is qualified for both dressage and eventing at WEG. He has competed at both the **** level in eventing and Grand Prix dressage." I reckon if Heath took up reining, he'd be awesome at it...
    There was also a German rider (of the 50's/60s) I think, who competed in both Grand Prix dressage and Grand Prix jumping. And didn't Mark Todd compete in at least one Olympics in both GP jumping and eventing? The story about the German (it may have been Theidemann?), was that he was riding one of his horses during a schooling session, and the other dressage riders were thinking that while the horse was correct, it wasn't really THAT good.....until they learned that it was his JUMPER!



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