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  1. #1

    Default sore horses federal crime

    For everyones information:
    Title 15 Commerce and Trade
    Chapter 44 Protection of horses
    15 USC 1823 and 1824
    it is a federal crime to show a horse that is sore.
    FEI, USEF and USDF are subject to this law as the governing bodies of dressage show in the United States.

    Any one know of any law firm willing to help?
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  2. #2
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    Default

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15..._15_10_44.html

    Reverend, you've got the wrong discipline in mind. The law you cite was passed to prevent "soring", commonly done to so-called Big Lick TWH.



  3. #3
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    Location
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    You missed 1821:

    (3) The term “sore” when used to describe a horse means that—
    (A) an irritating or blistering agent has been applied, internally or externally, by a person to any limb of a horse,
    (B) any burn, cut, or laceration has been inflicted by a person on any limb of a horse,
    (C) any tack, nail, screw, or chemical agent has been injected by a person into or used by a person on any limb of a horse, or
    (D) any other substance or device has been used by a person on any limb of a horse or a person has engaged in a practice involving a horse...



  4. #4
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    This is not my perception, this is from the federal statutes as interpreted to me by an individual who works with this law.

    Sec. 1822. Congressional statement of findings

    The Congress finds and declares that--
    (1) the soring of horses is cruel and inhumane;
    (2) horses shown or exhibited which are sore, where such
    soreness improves the performance of such horse, compete unfairly
    with horses which are not sore;


    1821 3.(D) is the portion that is exactly designed to facilitate general soreness....

    3) The term ``sore'' when used to describe a horse means that--
    (A) an irritating or blistering agent has been applied,
    internally or externally, by a person to any limb of a horse,
    (B) any burn, cut, or laceration has been inflicted by a
    person on any limb of a horse,
    (C) any tack, nail, screw, or chemical agent has been
    injected by a person into or used by a person on any limb of a
    horse, or
    (D) any other substance or device has been used by a person
    on any limb of a horse or a person has engaged in a practice
    involving a horse,

    and, as a result of such application, infliction, injection, use, or
    practice, such horse suffers, or can reasonably be expected to
    suffer, physical pain or distress, inflammation, or lameness when
    walking, trotting, or otherwise moving, except that such term does
    not include such an application, infliction, injection, use, or
    practice in connection with the therapeutic treatment of a horse by
    or under the supervision of a person licensed to practice veterinary
    medicine in the State in which such treatment was given.
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2008
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    Default

    Is this individual familair with the terms involved with horses?

    (2) horses shown or exhibited which are sore, where such soreness improves the performance of such horse, compete unfairly with horses which are not sore;
    They are not talking about showing an uncomfortable or lame horse, as that wouldn't make them have an unfair advantage iver the competition. They mean a horse who has been sored on purpose, perhaps as a way to make them pick their legs up higher (TWH) or to be careful not to touch a pole (jumpers).

    I don't believe that this Section was written to address general Abuse, but perhaps it could be read that way.

    NJR



  6. #6
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    Jul. 8, 2003
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    Default

    subk is right. You have to read 1821 first.



  7. #7
    Join Date
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    dont forget chains around the ankle
    _\\\\]
    -- * > hoopoe

    www.meanderingwa.blogspot.com



  8. #8
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    That's right. The Reverend Mr. Buck has, in the past, posted photographs on the internet of him jumping a horse with a chain on one ankle.

    Such abuse is clearly defined in 1821. That's a "device".



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2008
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    Pot, meet kettle.

    I'd also like to point out that none of this could be construed as "classical" dressage by any thinking person who had one iota of knowledge of the topic.

    NJR



  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    Any one know of any law firm willing to help?

    don't know why you need a law firm...here's how it goes on a day to day basis...

    say you know of a horse that is sored (which is to say, has it's gait altered thru painful methods,devices or chemicals or has visible thickened scar tissue from same and is showing at a public venue and contrary to popular belief is applied to all horses nationwide)

    you call a USDA vet and tell them there is a horse in violation of the Rule...they arrive...check the horse and issue a ticket to the owners and riders which they then defend in federal court...

    a lack of a DQP (not to be confused with a DQ)also causes the show management company to be named as well in the tickets...

    now (not knowing you from Adam) if you are trying to get out of the ticket any major law firm in Shelbyville TN would have knowledge to argue on your behalf...be warned they normally lose

    the original HPA covered all horses...the saddleseat folks cleaned up most of their act pretty quickly and the walking horse people resisted such that it was reworded 3 to 5 ? years later and mentioned them in specific...but any one involved has always said ANY horse or mule or pony is open to inspection...not just someone gaited...

    so, if you have back chains on a pony's feet to make him more active behind and it makes him sore to palpation or makes him bleed or gives him an unfair advantage you can get a ticket....back chains alone do not qualify

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  11. #11
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    Feb. 11, 2002
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    Default

    Everyone, just consider the source....ignore him and maybe he'll go away....



  12. #12
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    You can read the whole thing here; http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/hp/index.shtml
    I still doubt that any understanding will ensue(for the OP).
    Click on Scar rule violations to see what these rules were designed to prevent; http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel...hp_index.shtml

    GO USDA !!
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  13. #13
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    Mar. 8, 2009
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    Default

    I did an entire Law Review paper on this topic... its not what you're cutting and pasting it to mean here Rev.

    You can't take a snippet of the law, you have to take it as a whole.

    Its not talking about a horse that is generally lame being shown. No lawyer would take a case. (no intelligent lawyer... I guess there are many of us out there, I can't say NONE)
    http://dressageesquire.blogspot.com
    "The ability to write a check for attire should not be confused with expertise. Proficiency doesn't arrive shrink-wrapped from UPS and placed on your doorstep."



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 14, 2002
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    Take the burrs out from under your saddle blankets.

    I am in contact with the person in authority at the USDA, awaiting their input as to what I have been told.

    According to the lawyer I spoke with after reading this, the lawyer said it could be used, however, that I should contact USDA and I have.

    The reason I posted this is simply because of the uproar over rolkur and other schooling/riding methods and the references in mission statements to the health and welfare of the horse as primary.
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  15. #15
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    Damn. Does this mean I have to take the chains off my horse before I practice my rollkur?

    *gnashes teeth*
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  16. #16
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    Nov. 23, 2001
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    Catharpin, Virginia
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    Default

    DQ Ribbon Ho -- only if it is found to be wrapped around the tongue to the point it turns blue.

    OP -- drop the "e" and add "ing". One is a condition that can occur to any horse, even at liberty ...the other is a human-induced technique for showing purposes.

    Totally different meanings.



  17. #17
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    Jul. 19, 2001
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    Can you sore a horse's loins by sitting your butt way up on the cantle and shooting your legs forward while bouncing over cavaletti ?

    Is a nose noose aka bitless bridle a DEVICE that can cause soreness?



  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    The reason I posted this is simply because of the uproar over rolkur and other schooling/riding methods and the references in mission statements to the health and welfare of the horse as primary.

    checking for pain,inflammation and such, is limited normally to the areas below the knees in specific the pasterns,fetlocks,coronary bands and heels and involves palpation, visual evidence and occasionally, thermography

    a horse (even gaited) can be lame and be excused by the steward or DQP w/o being sored of course,just as they can be excused for rearing up and over backward and such things or the rider can ask to be dismissed by simply moving to the middle of the ring and being still....

    lame does not mean sored, but it does mean they should be excused...many judges simply don't place a lame animal avoiding the public shame of being excused...low class number mean of course they can still get a lower ribbon of course

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  19. #19
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    Mar. 14, 2002
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    Call your vet and have those burrs removed from ya
    egontoast:
    I do not sore a horse's loins by placing my spine at the seventeeth thoracic veratbrae.....this correct as the folcrum point for the forward backward motion of the horse moves from approximately the 12th rearward when weight is added to the horse's back.
    Current saddle/rider positions force the weight of the saddle and rider onto the forehand of the horse!

    DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho":
    One makes a fool of themselves when they make statements regarding processes of which they have no direct knowledge. The chains were used for a very brief time {ten minute sessions} in order to get this particular horse to pick his feet up...this after using leg wraps and jumping boots to no avail.
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post

    Is a nose noose aka bitless bridle a DEVICE that can cause soreness?
    I think that there is/was a clause involving blood on the bridle/bit/mouth...

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



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