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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May. 21, 2008
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    88

    Default eventing questions from a H/Jer...

    Hi Eventers-

    I hope you guys can help me answer a few questions. My eventing knowledge is pretty limited.

    There is a trainer in this area who I personally think is all talk and no walk... a friend rides with her and I think it's pretty scary. Anyway..

    This trainer claims to have evented through intermediate level eventing. (Yes, like the intermediate that comes before advanced, not like "intermediate-level riding"). However, google and USEF show NO eventing results for this person that I can find. A few h/j results but nothing I can find as far as eventing. Trainer says that the events were unrec. and that is why there is no recording.
    So, is this possible? Do they even hold unrec. trails up to intermediate level? Are all unrec. not recorded? This trainer is in their late 20's so it's not like we are talking about 60 years ago or anything.

    Qestion #2: Trainer took students out schooling, repeatedly referring to one of the xc jumps as a "coffin." This was a single element with a ditch underneath and a log over top. I *thought* that was called a trakenher (spelling??) and a coffin was 3 elements with a ditch in the middle? I could totally be wrong about this... My friend thought the same thing and when she said "isn't this a trakenher, isn't that thing over there with a ditch in the middle called a coffin" the trainer said "well I learned to event in England and we call this a coffin over there." Is there any truth to this? Is it called something different in England? Am I just totally mixed up?

    Thank you!!
    -A confused and concerned hunter rider!



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
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    1,221

    Default

    Smells fishy to me. I find it highly suspect that a trainer who as gone Intermediate in the US would not know the difference between a trakehner and a coffin. I'm also not familiar with any events that run full Intermediate unrecognized HTs (I've seen plenty of combined tests with no XC, but Intermediate's a big course for an unrec. show budget). I don't think you're mixed up, but it sounds like maybe the trainer is .
    If it were easy, everybody would do it.

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 1999
    Location
    Libertyville, IL USA
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    4,105

    Default

    Not sure what they call them in England but in the US you have the terms for coffin and trakehner correct. I doubt the British use the exact opposite terms we do, but there are certainly posters who can answer that question.

    In my experience, and others may have a different experience, I have not seen the intermediate level offered at an unrecognized event. I can't recall ever having seen prelim at an unrecognized event, but I would consider it a possibility. Can't see anyone taking the risk of running intermediate just for the hell of it at an unrecognized event.

    Trainer could be speaking the truth about her experience. A general search on the USEA will not show my Intermediate or ** rides. They are 2006 and earlier. Old, but not ancient, but still not available in general. I haven't tried, but I think I can get to them using my login. I also have print outs, if anyone ever doubted me. If you want to know for sure, just call the USEA (I would wait until after Rolex) and tell them you are interested in this trainer's experience. I don't know for certain, but would suspect the USEA would have an interest in helping you verify claims of experience.

    ETA: For caevent below, the record for my intermediate horse is also no longer available on line to a general member. Must be a date cut off for horses too.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2006
    Posts
    475

    Default

    Sounds like you're pretty much on the money. I've lived in Europe and a trakehner was always a log over a ditch. A coffin was always a 3-element question with a jump in, ditch, jump out. Heck, they were even called trakehners and coffins in a different language, so I think it's universal.

    The USEA website usually only keeps public records for competitions from the last 24 months. If you know of the trainer's horses' show names, a USEA member can look up their complete history (feel free to PM me if you want help with that). In my area, we only have unrecognized competitions for the lower levels. You need qualifying scores to be eligible to compete in an FEI three-day, so anyone worth their weight will strive to compete in recognized events in order to acheive those scores.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    May. 17, 2008
    Location
    south
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    617

    Default

    There are a couple schooling events that have Int. I know one is in NY but I think there are very few most only go to training and some do a PT (prelim test and SJ with the X/C at training) others would be a combined test only that would go to the higher levels. There was a jumper trainer in our area that was bringing his students X/C schooling, he did not have a clue what he was doing and students were flying off the horses left and right, when one asked where his experience was going X/C he said he had competed at Burghley but had never evented before that...can you imagine???



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 3, 2000
    Location
    Nokesville, VA
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    35,080

    Default

    As a couple of people have said, the USEA only lists recent results on the
    'public" section. You can get SOME older results on the member-only section, but not all of them, so it IS possible.

    There may be a few unrec Intermediate HT, but they are not common.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2009
    Location
    Georgia/Alabama
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Could try Eventing News as well? They have results going back to '99.

    http://www.eventingnews.com



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep. 6, 1999
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    5,242

    Default

    You can search by the person's name
    http://www.useventing.com/competitio...section=search

    And you might also want to suggest to the friend about finding an ICP instructor and to read up on eventing here
    http://www.discovereventing.com/



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar. 30, 2007
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    Hollowed out volcano in the South Pacific.
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    11,125

    Default

    Definitely seek out a qualified and reputable instructor. You don't want to risk your safety and potentially bet your life on a delusional mind playing Doctor to your patient.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec. 31, 2007
    Location
    AreaII
    Posts
    1,348

    Default

    There are a few in this area as well- that boast MUCH more of a record than they actually competed at or even have experience with (as in maybe they competed Training but groomed for an Advanced rider a few times and tout they are experienced through the Advanced level).

    There is also a local H/J trainer that has her 9yo beginner riders executing a 'shoulder-in' when they can't even steer yet! I feel very sorry for the unknowledgeable parents/riders because they unassumingly fall into this "gaze of glory" with their instructors- not knowing they are complete frauds.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    May. 21, 2008
    Posts
    88

    Default

    Thanks to everyone for the help so far.

    I did manage to get ahold of someone at USEA (thanks Gry2Yng for that suggestion) and they said that they had no records of that person in their database.
    She is registered as a professional with USEF and has horses recorded but no results.

    Lex- Thank you, I finally have a wonderful and knowledgeable trainer with real experience (not the gal I'm talking about). I am concerned about a friend who rides with this person (as stated in OP).

    I did find a few places that run unreg. Intermediate horse trials but no results for this person and they do seem to be very rare in this area from what I can tell. Again I am by no means knowledgeable in the eventing world, but from what I have looked into so far this is what I have found.

    Diablos Halo- This seems similar- My friend loves this trainer because she has gone from struggling in the 2' hunters and eq with her old trainer- to the new trainer, who has her jumping 3'9-4' less than a year later. It's pretty terrifying to watch, new trainer had her buy a new horse who is a saint and a packer (think, 3 legged leaps and nasty chips consistently, hanging on the horses face over every fence, NO leg stability... ) otherwise I'm pretty sure she would be dead by now! I can't watch her ride anymore and the pictures horrify me. This trainer also claims to have ridden Grand Prix internationally (but "in England, where they don't record these things"- she spent a few months there, it's not like she lived there for any extensive period of time), as well as claims to have shown thru the regular working hunters, and evented thru intermediate. It has actually become a big argument between us.... I guess I should just slink back to MMOB now..

    Thanks again to everyone for the help and suggestions.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 6, 2003
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    Back in the South!! Alabama
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    Default

    Sadly, I think everywhere has their share of this type of "trainer/instructor" and the noobies in most cases don't find out till it's too late.... We see plenty of it around here. If it smells fishy, it's always best to check.

    The quality ones usually don't go around tooting their horns. Ours has completed Rolex, was long listed for the '96 team and won AEC's, but... you wouldn't know it unless you asked. She prefers to let the students and horses speak for her.
    www.foxwoodfarms.biz
    "There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."
    -Member of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique!
    http://community.webshots.com/user/wlrottge



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2009
    Location
    England
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    400

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gry2Yng View Post
    Not sure what they call them in England but in the US you have the terms for coffin and trakehner correct. I doubt the British use the exact opposite terms we do, but there are certainly posters who can answer that question.
    We use the same names as you



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 1999
    Location
    Libertyville, IL USA
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    4,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nomeolvides View Post
    We use the same names as you
    I have reached a point in my personal growth that I will concede that I could be wrong, so I let someone else answer. Having ridden with many members of British Eventing (did it used to be British Horse Trials Association or am I making that up) I was pretty sure the discussion would have come up when I said let's jump that coffin and they headed for a ditch with a log over it.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2008
    Posts
    2,115

    Default

    Does the trainer have photographs of herself over Intermediate-style fences? A lot of trainers let photographs help promote them. Curious if she doesn't have at least one or two. They might be posted at the barn or on a website somewhere.

    Just a suggestion. Have your friend ask her in a gushing tone "so what was the course like at your Intermediate - where was it?" Get the name of one of her intermediate trials and the apprx time of which year she was there. You would have more research information. If the person won't name any of her intermediate trials then I'd assume its because they don't exist. Not buying any "don't remembers," I think at least a few of the intermediates would be engraved on the brain.

    I wonder if you could look up English Grand Prix results in Horse & Hound (online) or some other English publication. I doubt the GP's fade into oblivion as if they never occurred. Much more general-format reporting on horse venues occurs in England.

    Good luck for yourself, even if you can't help your friend.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct. 31, 2008
    Location
    Poetry, TX
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    908

    Default

    I will second that you have the names of the XC jumps right.

    And that it would be highly unusual for someone to have competed "unrecognized" at Intermediate level. I live in a popular eventing area (Area V), and correct me if I'm wrong, but I cant think of a venue in our area that has an Intermediate course that even offers "Schooling HTs" much less at that high of a level. All the places around here that offer schooling HTs only have a Training Level course at most. One exception might be Quail Run.. but I'm pretty sure they only go thru Prelim.
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  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb. 13, 2008
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caevent View Post
    Sounds like you're pretty much on the money.
    My thoughts too.

    There are several "trainers" in my area who claim to have competed Prelim, Intermediate, even Advanced with no record of it (and in Ontario we dont really have unrecognized events). I have noticed a lot of people consider schooling the height to equal competence at that level. Or schooling a couple Prelim xc fences to equal competence at that level. I watch them ride and the thought of them approaching a corner or a bounce makes me nearly wet myself.

    Yes, it really bothers me.



  18. #18
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    Feb. 22, 2002
    Location
    Kansas
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    1,053

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishWillow View Post
    I will second that you have the names of the XC jumps right.

    And that it would be highly unusual for someone to have competed "unrecognized" at Intermediate level. I live in a popular eventing area (Area V), and correct me if I'm wrong, but I cant think of a venue in our area that has an Intermediate course that even offers "Schooling HTs" much less at that high of a level. All the places around here that offer schooling HTs only have a Training Level course at most. One exception might be Quail Run.. but I'm pretty sure they only go thru Prelim.
    Woodlands in Edmond, OK used to have a full Intermediate course (don't think it was ever used in a Recognized HT) and still has some I-level obstacles available. As far as Prelim goes, Briar Fox Farm & Heritage Park in southern Area IV will, I beleive, let you do a schooling HT at that level if you ask and you can school Longview (MCPC HT) at Prelim. Feather Creek in Norman, OK, have a Prelim course but not sure if they've ever offered it as a Schooling HT. BTW there's a rumor that FC will offer a I/P class at their next HT.
    Brock
    Brock n. (Anglo-Saxon) badger as in Brockenhurst, Brocklebank etc www.area35.us



  19. #19
    Join Date
    May. 21, 2008
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    88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ksbadger View Post
    Woodlands in Edmond, OK used to have a full Intermediate course (don't think it was ever used in a Recognized HT) and still has some I-level obstacles available. As far as Prelim goes, Briar Fox Farm & Heritage Park in southern Area IV will, I beleive, let you do a schooling HT at that level if you ask and you can school Longview (MCPC HT) at Prelim. Feather Creek in Norman, OK, have a Prelim course but not sure if they've ever offered it as a Schooling HT. BTW there's a rumor that FC will offer a I/P class at their next HT.
    Thanks. This person is and always has been based in CA so I think midwest would be pretty far to travel for an unrec. trial.



  20. #20
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    Apr. 8, 2004
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    I have a book set at the 1956 Stockholm game where they describe the Trakhener much as a modern coffin. Possibly she got her terminology from that??
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



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