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  1. #1
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    Default Where to buy a "Vlinderbitje" in North America...

    One of these:

    http://www.tackshop.nl/shop_be/produ...18&language=nl

    I've also heard it called a "Klamner"

    Easily found in Europe, but shipping is expensive. Thought I'd try to locate one here first! And for those who haven't used one, no, it's not as scary as it looks - basically a second, thin snaffle that clips behind your regular bit for the moments when you need something a little extra. I borrow my trainer's on occasion (purchased years ago), and it's great on my mare who occasionally forgets that towing isn't cool, but goes in a KK Ultra the 90% of the time.
    Last edited by Ibex; Apr. 15, 2010 at 12:28 AM. Reason: Punctuation
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  2. #2
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    Huh, that is interesting! Do you use a second set of reins, then? Or how is it employed when you need it?

    Can you not just order and have it shipped--doesn't look terribly expensive.
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  3. #3
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    Do you mean "Flinderbitje"? I think flinder is Dutch for butterfly, hence "butterfly bit".

    I wonder if you could just buy a bridoon and clip it on your regular bit.

    Interesting idea. Sort of like a double aka weymouth aka bit and bridoon aka full bridle with two snaffles.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  4. #4
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    Basically it clips to your bit rings between your current bit and the reins and provides a bit more "bite" on a horse that doesn't need a stronger bit generally. If it's not necessary you can just pop it off. There's no curb/leverage action, just a thinner, sharper snaffle. If it were needed daily you'd probably want to look at other options. Apparently they're quite commonly used in warm-up rings in Europe and then pulled for showing. It seems to lay level/flat unless the horse decides to reef on it (sort of like letting them shank themselves on a stud chain).

    Shipping was $60 to Canada (choke, gasp), hence why I'm trying to find it in NA first.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  5. #5
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    used in warm-up rings in Europe and then pulled for showing
    Heh heh, DW gets a little light bulb flickering over her head . . .

    I'd think someone handy with metal could fashion something like this out of a bradoon bit--farrier, maybe? But $60 shipping plus--what--$15 for the bit is less than you pay for some regular ones.
    Click here before you buy.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Heh heh, DW gets a little light bulb flickering over her head . . .

    I'd think someone handy with metal could fashion something like this out of a bradoon bit--farrier, maybe? But $60 shipping plus--what--$15 for the bit is less than you pay for some regular ones.
    I'm willing to bet it's the same little light bulb that flickers over my trainers head too! Apparently they're traditionally called a Klamner, or a Clammer or something. The running joke around the barn is how in love we all are with Mr Klamner. What can I say... he gets around...
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  7. #7
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    :::Beating head into proverbial wall:::

    We didn't used to need 500 extra bits in the barn or in their mouths.

    My how the times, training and patience levels have changed.

    ~Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    :::Beating head into proverbial wall:::

    We didn't used to need 500 extra bits in the barn or in their mouths.

    My how the times, training and patience levels have changed.

    ~Emily

    I'm with you Emily!



  9. #9
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    Yup, I used to be a snaffle nazi, too. "Just learn to ride!" Not any more. Surgeons have favorite instruments, musicians have as well. Even mechanics. One can't make a good horse with a bad bit, but one can spend a lot less time fighting with them when one has a bit that is mutually agreed-upon as effective and tolerable.
    Click here before you buy.



  10. #10
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    This is quote worthy...
    but one can spend a lot less time fighting with them when one has a bit that is mutually agreed-upon as effective and tolerable.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Yup, I used to be a snaffle nazi, too. "Just learn to ride!" Not any more. Surgeons have favorite instruments, musicians have as well. Even mechanics. One can't make a good horse with a bad bit, but one can spend a lot less time fighting with them when one has a bit that is mutually agreed-upon as effective and tolerable.
    Agreed! This is an option for a horse that knows the right thing to do, but needs a bit of an occasional reminder . Better to utilize an available tool than have an argument - my mare will HAPPILY argue with you All. Day. Long. and it just gets frustrating for both horse and rider, and accomplishes absolutely nothing.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  12. #12
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    Sorry. Snaffle person here.
    I am in the learn to ride camp. Heavy, pulling horses can be changed.

    Read what John Nunn says in his BofB catalog about bits and galloping the strongest horse at the track. The Captain says put your hands down and let the mouth alone. Bruce Davidson says put your hands down and just gallop in rhythm. Not sure what Wof says but I am sure it is along those lines. Susie Hutchinson rode many a grand prix jumper in a hackamore and a couple with strings in their mouths. I am the weakest, worst rider in the world so if anyone needs a big bit it is me. I have a twisted copper mouth bit I used on my junior hunter back in the 70's and it has been on my wall for 30 years and I have only used it twice in all that time. I rode my current horse in a plain snaffle from the age of 3 to the age of 11 before he got his FIRST non-snaffle -- a plain snaffle gag -- for XC. And I have only used it probably 10-15 times on him in his whole life.

    Should not be fighting a horse. There is a lack of something -- basics are missing -- and you have to go back and fill in the holes. Classical riding is not easy, it's not quick, it's not for the feint of heart. One more quote -- Jack Le Goff, there is no instant dressage like instant coffee.
    Last edited by retreadeventer; Apr. 15, 2010 at 06:05 PM. Reason: address the fighting issue
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
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  13. #13
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    Yep. When a horse is heavy in the bridle, there are two ways to fix it.

    One is to use a stronger bit that fixes only a symptom of the problem, but doesn't address the real problem (horse is on the forehand/out of balance). The stronger bit may teach him not to lean on you or run through the bridle, but it does absolutely nothing to rebalance him. Some people get fooled into thinking that because the horse is now lighter, that he's in better balance. But the horse has just learned to avoid the pain by dropping behind the bit slightly....and there's that false frame again.

    The other is to use training to teach the horse to balance on his hind end. When he's moving correctly from behind, he will feel nice in your hand in the mildest of bits.

    Now for galloping x-c if a rider needs a stronger bit to be in control that is totally fine. Safety is #1. Although if a rider knows how to gallop race horses, they most likely won't need a stronger bit. There is a very specific technique for controling a strong horse at speed. But if a rider does not know how to do that, I would prefer that they used a stronger bit rather than be out of control.

    But for FLATWORK, no way. Any dressage trainer who would use harsher bits to fix flatwork problems like the horse being heavy in the bridle is clueless IMO.



  14. #14
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    Galloping is one thing. Performing a dressage test is another. Most horses with whom I "struggle" I can gallop NO PROBLEM. Hands down, let them roll, eaaaaasy. A series of 15 meter circles, lengthening, transitions in an itty bitty rectangle. Blecch.

    "Learn to ride" is of course the answer. I envy the riders who find this a rapid and intuitive process; it has NEVER been thus for me. Stickable I am, but finesse? Not so very much. But although I continue to take lessons, I don't have the time nor the inclination to do them every day, and (if it's OK with the purists and the gifted) I would dearly love to keep competing while that process--which takes a VERY long time in my case--goes on. If I "minded" mediocre scores I would have given up long ago. But who wouldn't say no to a better one before one turns seventy?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson View Post
    But for FLATWORK, no way. Any dressage trainer who would use harsher bits to fix flatwork problems like the horse being heavy in the bridle is clueless IMO.
    Great. I'll let my FEI dressage trainer with the barn full of happy, relaxed horses know that she's doin' it wrong.

    Like I said: the goal is the snaffle. There are many roads to rome... I've seen more dressage trainers fight with tense, unhappy horses in a snaffle in the name of correctness to think that alternatives are a good thing.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibex View Post
    Great. I'll let my FEI dressage trainer with the barn full of happy, relaxed horses know that she's doin' it wrong.


    If your trainer uses harsh bits to keep the horses from leaning on the bit (instead of fixing the problem correctly - engaging the hindquarters so the horse no longer needs/wants to lean on the bit) that speaks volumes about her. You can have her.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson View Post
    If your trainer uses harsh bits to keep the horses from leaning on the bit (instead of fixing the problem correctly - engaging the hindquarters so the horse no longer needs/wants to lean on the bit) that speaks volumes about her. You can have her.
    1. It's not harsh. It's a second snaffle, used carefully and sparingly.
    2. I think the barn full of happy, relaxed horses who understand their jobs says it all.


    There's a difference between using a tool to make it possible to do the right thing (horse no longer focusing on arguing, which makes it possible to engage the hindquarters, and show the horse clearly what you want), and depending on it (only ever being able to ride in it). I would rather use the available tool to achieve the result, with the correct end goal, than have an ongoing argument that simply frustrates and stresses out the horse. My mare has gone from just wanting to run through the hand and lean to understanding "leg".

    I sometimes suspect those who "preach it" have never actually "done it".
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibex View Post
    I would rather use the available tool to achieve the result, with the correct end goal, than have an ongoing argument that simply frustrates and stresses out the horse.

    You keep saying things like this. So you think there are only two options, putting a stronger bit in or argueing/fighting with the horse??

    I do something in the middle called training. I use excercises such as lateral work and transitions to teach the horse to carry his body correctly. And the problem in your hand will take care of itself. For example, if the horse is trying to be heavy in your hand at the trot, try some rapid trot-halt-trot transitions ridden correctly from your leg and seat into your hand, maybe trot-halt-reinback if necessary. Great excercise for engaging the hindquarters, and when the horse is more back on it's hocks, it will feel soft in your hands. Totally the opposite approach from fixing the problem from the front end.



  19. #19
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    All of which assumes the rider has the requisite know-how and is physically (not just on paper, heck, I could do Grand Prix if dressage were multiple choice) capable enough to sustain this very-very correct schooling for weeks and months without making many mistakes and is able to very competently school a horse through moments of resistance, etc. Oh, to be so skilled.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    All of which assumes the rider has the requisite know-how and is physically (not just on paper, heck, I could do Grand Prix if dressage were multiple choice) capable enough to sustain this very-very correct schooling for weeks and months without making many mistakes and is able to very competently school a horse through moments of resistance, etc. Oh, to be so skilled.
    "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."



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